Beta 4 Heroes

[Pillager]

Lphillips,

There is a whole threat discussing this issue, a threat you participated in...and it isn't this one. This thread has nothing to do with the merits of stack bonuses.

But, obviously you can post where you like...even if it makes no sense.

So, explain to me why it makes sense that a paladin gets a bonus in the forest, or hills or swamp? I'm sure that a swamp bonus for elves would be useful..but there is also the question of suitability.

[LPhillips]

My view is not so clouded by D&D perceptions.

A Paladin is a man. He grew up somewhere. If he fights a lot in the forest, even as a Paladin, he's going to learn to do it better. Sensible enough. Heroes also have an entourage, in all likelihood, including retainers. A good reason why their strength is equal to an army. Perhaps he employs Yeomen as his fame spreads and he can recruit whom he likes.

A Wizard can be a muscular man who wears armor and wields a sword. D&D wizards are strongly themed to make that game more interesting by varying equipment availability and usefulness for multiple cooperative players. There really is no good reason to carry over those perceptions of heroes and classes into this game.

So let's stop thinking in terms of traditional D&D themes. That's a really pathetic, weak argument for any point in my opinion. It limits your possibilities and restricts the uniqueness of this game. I'd love to see a wizard with a bad-ass broadsword and a holy shield spanking the everliving hell out of undead. In Tolkien, for instance, Gandalf was sent by gods to battle evil. He used a sword and magic (let me stop anyone from pointing out that I was not describing Gandalf in my theoretical description of a wizard in this game; I'm aware of that). I'd love to see a Conan-type barbarian, not trusting in magic but capable of employing it should he run across some item even a barbarian can use. Strangling people and monsters with his bare hands, reading incantations, battling evil with holy blessings, getting friendly with princesses, sorceresses, and priestesses.

Catching my drift now? A Paladin doesn't need to be a D&D Paladin. How boring! Let him grab that spellbook of undead summoning, and maybe change his class to "Dark Paladin" in such a blatant crossing of lines, but for creativity's sake let's abandon the silly D&D presuppositions.

[Pillager]

The whole fantasy genre is very derivative. D&D is not the source of the paladin, it simply adopted the paladin from early medieval tales about Charlemagne's heroic knights. So, the concept of the paladin has been around for coming close to 1000 years...and now Lphillips wants to reinvent the paladin for warbarons.

The question is why?

Why would it be more interesting if every hero was essentially the same? If wizards are heavily armored hand to hand combatants and barbarians are casting magic..why bother with any distinction between the two? Why not just have a generic hero? That seems to be where your logic is heading...and to me that is the most 'boring' option available.

[KGB]

Technically speaking, Gandalf was an Archon not man. So he's not a good example of a Wizard.

And I agree with Pillager. If any hero can do/use anything then we just need a single 'hero'. The player then customizes with spells/abilities as they see fit.

Once the decision is made to classify heroes by types then that implies certain thematic restrictions.

KGB

[Pillager]

A terrain bonus option would be fairly thematic for a ranger or barbarian hero (if we ever get those options).

[LPhillips]

No one suggested absolute equality between abilities.

I am pointing out that it doesn't need to be D&D themed to work. We don't need to stick to those standards. In fact, it is restrictive to the employment of creativity by the makers of this game. Allowing wizards to wear armor, even if they can't utilize it as well as other heroes, doesn't hurt in any way. It just offends strict guidelines established by a game that is already too prevalently copied. Wizards be able to use spells innately, warriors won't. Warriors and other heroes will have their own trade-offs like strength, command, movement, etc.

Yes, I am suggesting we employ creativity. I am suggesting we allow the possibility of reinventing some steriotypes. That's not a cause for ridicule; it's an open invitation for creativity. Isn't one more Rogue/Warrior/Mage/Paladin cookie cutter hero system going to rub anyone a little raw considering the lineage of this game?

[KGB]

LPhillips,

I already suggested in another thread using the proposed Warlords 5 system where players select their hero types as part of their level up process and so could customize based on need.

L1 - Generic hero. Comes with standard stats of 5 strength, 2 hits, 14 moves.
L2 - Select profession. (Warrior/Mage/Rogue/Priest). Based on selection standard stats alter to fit the chosen profession (Warriors get more strength, Mages less, Rogues more move etc). Some spells and class specific skills become available.
L3 - Select Specialization (Warriors: Warrior, Paladin, General, Ranger Mages: Wizard, Alchemist, Summoner, Necromancer Priests:Priest, Druid, Shaman, Monk Rogue:Thief, Bard, Barbarian, Vampire). More spells become available, certain abilities etc become available, more changes to the base stats. Costs of abilities starts to vary based on profession.

This way players are role playing their hero and selecting what they want based on game need. Ability/skills/spells costs and restrictions are based on profession and later specialization.

You still won't get Conan using spells but at least now you get to decide if you want Conan or not at game time based on need rather than when a new hero arrives.

Isn't one more Rogue/Warrior/Mage/Paladin cookie cutter hero system going to rub anyone a little raw considering the lineage of this game?

Not sure what you mean by this statement in terms of lineage of the game. DLR had fully specialized heroes based on the AD&D (really any fantasy I've read) model. Since Warbarons is a hybrid of War2/DLR it makes sense to continue down what was a successful path.

KGB

[LPhillips]

I really like that model.
Especially attractive is the element of mystery if you haven't tested all of the hero types yet. If you have the time and dedication, allowing the class and options to change based on ability choices would be even better. So if you chose to increase movement, your options might move into more of a ranger/rogue area, while increasing undead lore/wisdom might move you in a priestly direction, or increasing strength and command might move you in a warrior/General direction. It would become easier to gain certain abilities and harder to gain others based on your choices (while some choices may appear or disappear depending on previous selections), and your hero might acquire a class name based on your choices.

The lineage of the game would be Steve Fawkner's love of molding fantasy environments in an only semi-traditional way. He employed a lot of freedom of creativity and liked to reinvent things, increasingly demonstrated by his later games.

[Pillager]

KGB,

An interesting model...but it is very involved. Seems like a huge leap from the current three hero system. Plus some of the class shifts (like rogue to vampire) don't make sense.

I would be happy enough to see some more hero classes tacked on every now and then.

Lphillips,

I don't think that magic users wearing armor or barbarians casting spells is a huge issue. But, I still disagree with your premise that making hero classes less distinct is somehow more creative and interesting. What you are advocating is less variety, which is inherently less interesting.

[KGB]

Pillager,

I just posted the DLR heroes for an illustration of the specialization classes. The Vampire as you noted makes no sense under Rogue.

Since there is already a DreadKnight and Valkyrie they'd have to replace 2 heroes in the DLR list so I'd replace General with DreadKnight and Vampire with Valkyrie.

In any case none of this would happen in Beta4 since it's just about done. The earliest would be Beta5. Since Magic will likely not come till after that you'd want 1 new Rogue type hero so that you could use the model with 2 Warrior types and 2 Rogue types and leave the Mage/Priest trees until such time magic was added.

KGB