illogicalities in Warbarons

[strach]

Hi, this post isn’t in any way trying to ridicule this exciting game, I just want to point out some illogicalities which came to my mind while playing Warbarons:
1) giant – S5, dwarf – S4. Come on, it got to be some kind of a tiny giant when it’s almost as strong (or weak) as his little fella.
2) Hero flying on a crow and crow taking over the city. Not only the crow is enormously big but it can govern the city and give commands about the production.
3) Flying units using only one move point on the road. It’s justified only when it comes to pegasi or griffon, but does a dragon or a crow actually runs on the road? Or is it easier to fly above the road than above the forest?
4) Elephants fighting as a naval unit. There’s a saying about an elephant in the room, how much worse must it get, when it is on the ship. And how does an elephant attack the other ship? Does it use its trunk as a hose? The other thing is that the whole naval system is illogical (fire elemental turning into a ship on an anchor would be a nice example).
5) Location – this is the most ridiculous feature. You win a city on enemy ground, and three turns later 4 units appear in it out of nowhere. How does it happen?
6) Battering ram moving at the same pace as light infantry. I suppose the ram should have a considerable weight that slows down the whole unit, but apparently it isn’t too heavy.

Can You think of any other things that doesn’t make much sense?

[KGB]

1) giant – S5, dwarf – S4. Come on, it got to be some kind of a tiny giant when it’s almost as strong (or weak) as his little fella.

The answer here is that it's a naming problem. The units should be called Giants and Dwarves. I don't think anyone imagines that units are singular other than maybe a Dragon/Archon/Devil. Some units like Infantry/Cavalry are already plural. Beta4 could fix the names so they are all plural except units meant to be singular like a Dragon.

DLR made this clear because it had unit portraits in the production screen that showed groups of the units (multiple Giants, Dwarves etc).

So I tend to think of a Dwarf as representing a legion of Dwarves (200) and a Giant representing a troop of Giants (20-25).

2) Hero flying on a crow and crow taking over the city. Not only the crow is enormously big but it can govern the city and give commands about the production.

Agreed. Lucky this will be fixed in Beta4 and heroes will no longer ride around on a Crow/Bat.

As far as giving orders goes, I assume any city you own has non military personnel responsible for the production.

3) Flying units using only one move point on the road. It’s justified only when it comes to pegasi or griffon, but does a dragon or a crow actually runs on the road? Or is it easier to fly above the road than above the forest?

Agreed. I hate this. All fliers should pay 2 movement on all terrain except mountain where they pay 4.

4) Elephants fighting as a naval unit. There’s a saying about an elephant in the room, how much worse must it get, when it is on the ship. And how does an elephant attack the other ship? Does it use its trunk as a hose? The other thing is that the whole naval system is illogical (fire elemental turning into a ship on an anchor would be a nice example).

I'm guessing the only thing Elephants do on ships is dislodge grappling hooks and perhaps batter enemy units that board the boat. They certainly couldn't board an enemy ship.

Not sure what you mean about the naval system being illogical. Do you think there aren't boats on the water? Merchant ships/Fishing boats and things like that? I assume there are always boats in the water and that when you reach a port your armies hire boats that are in port or you have arranged to have boats meet your armies there. The game just doesn't show the empty boats simply to save the micromanagement needed to hire/build empty boats and move them around the map.

My understanding in Beta4 is that you'll pay money at a port to board the 3 different types of ships which supports the idea of hiring boats or arranging for boats to meet your armies.

5) Location – this is the most ridiculous feature. You win a city on enemy ground, and three turns later 4 units appear in it out of nowhere. How does it happen?

You mean Vectoring? If so, this is a common complaint about the game. It's only purpose was to speed up micromanaging moving hundreds of units but I agree, it's completely illogical.

6) Battering ram moving at the same pace as light infantry. I suppose the ram should have a considerable weight that slows down the whole unit, but apparently it isn’t too heavy.

Battering rams traveled on carts with 4 wheels. So they were pulled by horses/elephants/oxen etc. That would mean they can be easily transported then removed from the cart when ready to be used. Nothing illogical about their movement.

http://www.google.com/search?q=batterin ... d=0CD0QsAQ

Other things that are strange:

1) Ghosts can't fly. They should fly but at the same time they should not be able to carry a hero since they are incorporeal. Ghosts also should be immune to city walls like the Demon is for that same reason.

2) Fire Elementals can't travel on Lava (Beta4). As creatures of pure fire they should be able to travel across Lava.

3) You can see armies inside enemy cities. Why would you be able to see an exact count of the armies behind the city walls/hiding in buildings? In DLR you had to attack if you wanted to get a count of the enemy armies. This was a game option but one that was virtually always turned on.

KGB

[strach]

1) I have also always imagined units as groups (troops or legions), but havent differentiated between number of armies in one unit (because otherwise it would be possible to say that light infantry is stronger than heavy infantry because there are more armies in one unit). That’s why I still think that giants should be more powerful that dwarves.
2) Of course city is “run” by non-military crew, but I was saying that a crow (or even a flock of them) should not be able to command them what to do (right now crows are taking over the city and giving orders to the city management). Ok, let’s say that a flock of giant crows can kill armies which were protecting the city, but they should not be able to start a production there.
3) I see that you took the whole thing with elephant pretty serious (dislodge grappling hooks?). The idea with hiring boats doesnt sound reasonable to me. In my opinin boats should be produced in port-cities.
4) Yes, by location I mean vectoring. I thought it was called like that in W2 – at least we always used to say – “lokacja”. And I think it’s a good feature, it’s just illogical, by I wouldn’t want to get rid of it.
5) I guess they didn’t carry the battering ram in their hands, but nevertheless that kind of unit should be slower then those who don’t have to take care of it. The same goes with catapult – especially in forest or mountains, not to mention the swamp – so overall it’s should be slower than normal units.

[KGB]

Strach,

1) Giants are more powerful that Dwarves (5 vs 4). They also move farther. All that seems logical. I also attribute the high Dwarf strength to better armor which I assume the Dwarfs have (chain/plate) and the Giants don't (skins/leather).
2) Again, I assume starting production is done by non military crew. As illogical as it is for Crows to start Light Infantry production, it's just as illogical to suddenly have Heavy Infantry start Dragon production. To make it realistic, you'd need to bring a unit of the type you wanted to make into a city (to make a Dragon, you'd need a Dragon in the city, to make a Crow, you'd need a Crow). That would be endless micromanagement though and wouldn't add anything to the game.
3) Boats being made in port cites was the Warlords I model. It took forever (10-13 turns) to make a boat but the upside was there were no ports and so you could enter/exit boats anywhere along the shore. It definitely makes for a totally different game when boats are done that way since battles at sea cost your whole stack if you lost your single boat in a 1-1 combat with the enemy boat. I prefer the War2/DLR model for simplicity and less micromanagement. Otherwise if you don't have a port city to make boats, you are screwed because your opponent can land where he wants and you have to defend the entire coast line (this was a problem for a couple of the sides in Warlords I).
5) Most siege units were made as needed. They rarely traveled long distances. You just went into the forest and cut down trees and made the siege unit on the spot. So the concept of bringing siege units is what's not realistic.

KGB

[Negern]

Nice thread! Have also noticed some of those wierd things you're talking about.

Another one is about the cities storage capabilities. One can have at the maximum 32 units in a castle at the time, no matter how big they are. If it's crows or dragons doesn't matter, even though the dragons are probably a lot bigger than the crows, who would not even need other space than city walls to sit on. Can see it in front of me, like titanic. 32 frogs come jumping for the life boats, taking no more than one seat all togheter. The personel though thinks the boat is full and sends it away.

[strach]

another one: roads through the mountians - you can't travel through mountains but someone manged to built roads there? It must have been the crows

[Negern]

Have been thinking a lot abut the crows lately, not coming up with anything useful. Sure - it's the non-military personnel who takes care about productions, but how did they get there? Did they follow the crow, or did they just switch sides, seeing the crow flying over the walls? Not very patriotic, but that's how it is. A crow flies over the walls and all of a sudden non-military personnel begins to tear the place down, cause the crow told them so.

[strach]

yeah, that was exactly my point Negern.