Sorceress: Usefulness

[Chazar]

So, the Sorceress has seen some battles now, but even on Water-heavy maps, I find myself favouring the Ranger over a Sorceress.

To make that choice more difficult to me, I would suggest switching the starting value for UL between Ranger and Sorceress:

Code: Select all

Lvl |  S |  R |  P
  1 | 10 | 12 |  9
  2 | 10 | 14 | 12
  3 | 15 | 16 | 15
  4 | 15 | 18 | 18
  5 | 20 | 18 | 21


Giving the Sorceress +2 and the Ranger -2 (with max kept at 18 for Ranger) seems right to me, as there is no need to have the Ranger to be the superior ruin hunter at Level 3 and 4 (she is superior to the Paladin also because of her much better speed, which is crucial for ruin hunters). The Ranger is still good enough (equal to HorseLord then, apart from max value):

Code: Select all

Lvl |  S |  R |  P
  1 | 12 | 10 |  9
  2 | 12 | 12 | 12
  3 | 17 | 14 | 15
  4 | 17 | 16 | 18
  5 | 22 | 18 | 21


Would that be enough?

The Sorceress might need something else. I thought about suggesting a switch between the anti-air / group anti-air between ranger and sorceress, which would be thematic, but I dismissed the idea for being too much, even if the ranger's group warding would be boosted in return. So I have no suggestion there....?!

[KGB]

No to adjusting the Ranger UL down to 10. If you do that then the Ranger has no early game value at all since she suffers from the same problem as the Sorceress/HL etc in that she contributes nothing to attacking cities. That means no one is going to consider the Ranger as a 1st hero so the game would suffer from lack of 1st hero choice (would be down to Pally/Assassin/Barb/Valk). That would also make it much harder for her to level up since the only way to earn XP is from ruin picking.

I agree the Sorceress needs help. I said that when she was initially released. Here's what I wrote then:

If her base UL was increased to 12 (with the +5 for 2 points, cap at 27 max), her base movement to 20 and she moved over all terrain at cost of 2 (give her fly+waterwalk) she'd be a great ruin picker in the early game. Swap the 'nowall' skill for the Eye of KGB skill (call it 'Scry') which is something she needs as a ruin picker and has value the entire game (should not extend to teammates though) and then she probably gets used. I think the levitate skill can be changed to 10 points for Levitate at +8 move with each additional 5 points reducing the move cost by 1 down to a minimum of 4 so that 30 points spent = 4 move rate levitating. 30 points spent seems equivalent to a +9 Pally/+14 Valk/32% ambush Assassin/+13 Dwarf Engineer etc. Not sure what to do with the mostly useless personal AA.

Everything I wrote there still makes sense.

KGB

[Chazar]

Well, 10 is still enough to venture into L1 ruins right away, and a scout or two won't slow the ranger down either. The change is very small, but big enough to make me consider whether to choose ranger or sorceress at all. I'd still pick the ranger in certain situations.

Otherwise, your proposals seem quite overpowered to me.

[KGB]

10 is enough to guarantee a win against Skeletons but not against Ghouls. I've died plenty of times with 10 UL to Ghouls in a L1 ruin.

Anyway why does the Ranger need any kind of adjustment at all? She seems totally fine as is because she's not over used at all now that the Pally gets +2 Leadership for 10 points.

What part of my proposal overpowers the Sorceress? She still contributes nothing in the early game besides ruin picking. So if you take her you have to hope your early ruins give gold reward to get a 2nd hero quickly who can help take cities/attack/defend against enemies. She will still level slowly since ruins are the only real path to XP. Even with my changes I'd very rarely take her until I got a L3 hero where I'd have immediate access to one of her skills (water attack bonus, flight, ruin vision etc).

KGB

[smursh]

I disagree on Sorceress leveling slowly. Taking into account the +20 learning at start she can level fast if your starting units are able to take a city or two with her in tow. Also starting with ww means early on you are more mobile on many maps.

I find her very useful if risky on large 1x1 or 2x2 maps especially with numberous ruins. Once you start htting lvl-2 ruins and taking weak cities she goes up like a monster. Any battle artifact combined with move of 32 and you take neutrals and ruins so fast it makes your opponents head spin.

[KGB]

Smursh,

A lot of 'if's' there (need decent starting units, a battle item or two and weak neutrals) needed for it to work out. The biggest issue is you spent everything on movement and combat so even if she is level 6-7 by the time someone elses hero is level 3 or 4 she offers nothing to help you in the mid/late game. So you absolutely better have won the game on that early expansion rush which you noted only works on some maps.

I've only seen her a couple of times and those times were on obvious water maps. I tried her once on Airstream for fast ruin picking in the middle hoping to transport a stack over the mountains. It was OK but I could have done all of it with a Ranger (minus transporting a stack which was too slow to matter).

She needs a pretty big upgrade to be truly viable as anything other than a niche water map specialist. My suggestions would get her a lot closer to being viable. I am sure some worry about her having 'fly' in addition to waterwalk but I've found that the starting units contain a flier (Eagle/Ghost/Gryphon) about 50% of the time so that all heroes are flying anyway.

KGB

[Igor]

Little note: Sorceress is probably most being used hero now. Her movement and UL ability make her popular.

[smursh]

KGB, having a 30+UL and 32 or better move sorceress will pick up artifacts/allies/gold. That is the late game value.

But I agree, she is big risk/big reward and only good on some maps. But is ranger or HL much different? Both are situatonal heroes with big value on some maps but less so on others. Would you find use for HL on watermap? You would sacrifice any combat value for movement only.

[smursh]

I also feel the sorceress unbalances large maps for 1x1 and makes them unplayable. She can give such a huge advantage if luck is on your side you are forced to take her or risk losing before the game really get going. Bad luck and she dies you lose, good luck you expand so fast your opponent has no chance.

I would not mind seeing her stronger but cutting back on the speed.

[KGB]

Obviously a 32+ move, 30+ UL hero is a tremendous high level ruin searcher late game.

I'm on board with lower her max speed to say 26 in exchange for increasing her other powers slightly to make her more viable.

I'd also like to see other heroes base speed increase slightly by +2 across the board.

KGB