The forgotten Green Dragon & how to fix him

[magian]

KGB, in AD&D, all dragons cause fear. The green dragon breathes poison while the black dragon breathes acid. So, your argument there boils down to: the green dragon should cause fear because that is the way DLR did it. Not particularly compelling IMO.

KenC80, I played all of the first 3 warlords titles to death, and DLR was (far and away) the best of the three. Having units with varying numbers of wounds really sets them apart, separating heavy tanky units from more fragile ones in a way that city walls or dragon backup can't replicate. I don't much care for the arbitrary way wounds are being tacked on to units in warbarons though. Dragons are big, shouldn't the RD have a third wound? And we had a 3 wound unicorn for a while. This just seems out of wack from a common sense angle.

I think the GD just needs to get a cost decrease. 1800 is just too high. 4 turns is a long time to wait for a front rank fighter that might be killed by an elf in your next battle. So, you shouldn't have to pay through the nose to get the privilege. I'm not sure if they would get built much more at 1400 g, but it would be worth a try.

[KGB]

Magican,

I believe the 'Dragon Fear' got dropped in AD&D by the time 3rd edition came out. It was so weak a skill in 1st and 2nd editions that it only affected NPC's because by the time any character I ever had faced a Dragon, the fear was never an issue as no character ever failed their save.

The Breath Weapon is really what we are talking about when we speak of AD&D dragons. DLR followed the AD&D model where it had equivalent game skills. It definitely went with the idea that the 'good' Silver/Gold dragons were positive boosters and the 'evil' dragons were negative boosters or tank units.

Black Dragon: AD&D - Acid, DLR - Acid
Blue Dragon: AD&D - Lightning, DLR - Lightning
Red Dragon: AD&D - Fire , DLR - Chaos
Green Dragon: AD&D - Poison Gas cloud, DLR - Fear
Gold Dragon: AD&D - Fire, DLR - Morale
Silver Dragon: AD&D - Cold, DLR - Morale
Undead Dragon: AD&D - N/A, DLR - Curse

I would like it if Warbarons added more Dragons and then did the same borrowing from AD&D which most players are familiar with. It would be simple to color one Gold and use that as the Morale and then have the existing Red/Green dragons have +5 Chaos and Fear.

KGB

[Moonknight]

KenC80, I played all of the first 3 warlords titles to death, and DLR was (far and away) the best of the three. Having units with varying numbers of wounds really sets them apart, separating heavy tanky units from more fragile ones in a way that city walls or dragon backup can't replicate. I don't much care for the arbitrary way wounds are being tacked on to units in warbarons though. Dragons are big, shouldn't the RD have a third wound? And we had a 3 wound unicorn for a while. This just seems out of wack from a common sense angle.

magian, I agree, the Red Dragon should have a 3rd HP (and cost more to buy b/c of that). I think all the other HP for all other units make sense now though when you think about size/skin of the units. Kraken, Sandworm, and both Dragons with 3 HP and the Mammoth with 4 HP. Makes sense!

[LPhillips]

KGB,
I concede the point of the cap on the basis of coding. Which cap is preferable for balancing options boils down to whatever issues and changes arise in the future, so it's best to go with a simple cap now and adjust it later if needed.

As to whether a particular attempt at abusing the system ends up being effective or not... It's rather a good way to decide the question. Just as with Heavy Infantry's potential 20 strength, if you examine potential stacking of smaller units in a vacuum you come up with absurd/irrelevant arguments. "You can abuse this unit by sacrificing your total effectiveness!" is an absurd argument for nerfing. The distribution of +move units is currently so limited that there's not much potential for abuse, so a simple numerical cap is acceptable in the present.

Ken,
I'm not opposed to hero stacks gaining up to +15, if the method for gaining it could be restricted. Thus the idea of taking the top 3 values. So a +14 cap is not bad, as long as (1) Green dragons remain at 4 turns, (2) we concede certain abuses that will occur from the high cap, (3) group move bonus remains difficult to obtain.

However, I think tacking on +2 fear won't help the green dragon at all, any more than it does much for the Devil. I'd rather pay less for my high-tier units and not get weak overlapping bonuses. Or, preferably, be able to pay more for better, stronger units (like a Dragon with +7 fear or something of the kind). Really, I'd prefer to pay less for a Devil with +8 negate alone. Or the same for a +10 negate...

With a raw cap at 12, Green Dragons should have +4 move. With it at 14, +3.

If we're going to discuss all the high-tier units:
Red Dragon isn't powerful enough. Raise back to +12, and give Devil 9-10 negate please. The fear is inconsequential, just ditch it!
And please, a more powerful land/air based fear unit. Land preferably, to limit its mobility. Something pricy like the Red Dragon. I don't like to stick to AD&D themes; it restricts creativity and tastes too vanilla for me. After a few dozen games honoring D&D, it gets old. For the fans of D&D out there: let's make a new game. So I say get a little creative with your high-level Fear unit if you can.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

If we are going to do anything with the Red Dragon I'd prefer it go to 3 hits and stay at +10 Morale rather than go back to +12 Morale and remain at 2 hits.

We can't have a high level fear unit (I assume by high level you mean Fear > 5 since the Medusa already has 5) under the current bonus system. That's because of the fact the bonus's aren't capped so a 10 Fear unit is not only *much* stronger than a 10 Morale unit, it also makes Siege worthless since you can freely substitute one bonus for another. DLR solved that by limiting negative bonus's to -5 (so a -10 Fear got capped at -5) in one category. Piranha doesn't want to go that way so it means unless you want Siege to be obsolete there won't be a Fear unit > 5 (other than situational like the Kraken).

And I would prefer a Green Dragon got the big Fear if a unit was getting it. Despite the AD&D theme, Dragons are usually considered the pinnacle of fantasy creatures in terms of strength and power.

KGB

[Draxus]

But if we fix the Green Dragon, how will the little baby Green Dragons ever be born?

[LPhillips]

I'm confused by your entire statement on Fear. I understand that 10 fear is stronger than 10 morale, but I don't have a clue what you mean about a cap. Further, Fear and Siege are not the same; a unit with 10 fear doesn't make siege useless at all. For one thing, siege is cheaper than any such unit. For another, fear is effective in all locations and siege is not. Fear can be negated effectively by a Devil, while siege cannot (so siege is far more valuable attacking some fortified locations), and finally fear stacks with siege (resulting in -20 to that +15 city).

Now if you mean that you personally will use siege less or not at all if you have a -10 fear unit, I can understand. But they are not equal nor interchangeable. Fear is a heck of a nice bonus, I admit. But something above 5 does not seem absurd to me, even if 8 is the magic number.

[magian]

I think a mobile unit with a large fear bonus might make siege units worth less, but it certainly would not make them worthless.

Fear seems like a better fit for a dragon anyway. The prospect of fighting against a massive, flying, fire-breathing lizard is likely to loosen a few bladders. On the other side, I might feel a sense of invincibility if I was riding a dragon. But, If I was marching into battle next to one, I'd be be too concerned about being stepped on, accidentally incinerated, or eaten as a pre-battle snack, to be particularly inspired.

[Versace]

I am playing the Four Borders map now, the first map where I am producing green dragons and I found them very useful.

The 4 move for stack is nothing to sneeze at. You can make nice mobile flying stacks with them. I don't feel like I have to have full stacks as I do with Red Dragon to use its moral to the full. Also, its 3 hitpoints keeps it alive better and it doesn't always have to hide behind expendables.

Another benefit is that the opponent does not often know that you have a green dragon and does not count for the extra 4 move when deploying units in its cities.

Then there is the fact that you can have a quick enough flying unit Pegasi, with which you get half the bonus of Red Dragon, but the only other unit that gives move bonus is Elephant. And Elephants don't fly and they are too slow so you can't effectively use the bonus with quick units. Green Dragon and a Pegasi is a great combo.

I think it is fine as it is.