0.8 New Hero Balancing Thread

[KGB]

Perhaps you should disable to Barbarian on small maps? I think it is impossible to balance him both for small and big maps.

I think this is true not just of heroes but also of many units. Units/heroes that are perfectly fine on 100X maps or larger are going to be unbalanced on 50X maps. This is one of the reasons I mentioned that the minimum map size should increase to 75X so that the smallest map is 1/4 of the largest instead of the current 1/10.

I also mentioned in another thread that at some point the balance efforts are going to have have a statement that says they are for a specific map size (whether it's 100x, 50x, 150x) and that maps of other sizes may see inbalances with some units/heroes.

KGB

[Argammon]

As you probably know I disagree with the min map size. For me, many of the small maps are much fun because they give me the feeling of a chess game. Every move matters! In most cases, I guess, we have to live with some imbalances. In extreme cases I would propose a ban. If the barbarian is such an extreme case should become clear after some games have been played.

[KGB]

Why ban him? Just let everyone take one. Because next it will be the Horse Lord on small maps with lots of open/ice/desert terrain. Then after that it will be something else and on and on it will go.

Rather than chess, small maps seem like a sprint. The start is HUGELY important and it's all over very quickly. The strategic options are relatively limited since long term things don't matter much so memorizing the way to play a map is the next most important thing. Large maps are more like a marathon. The start isn't as important, long term position is everything and being able to adapt is key.

That's why balance is impossible for all maps. Preparation and things you do for a sprint are nothing like preparation and things you do for a marathon.

KGB

[Argammon]

If I play a few bad opening moves a game of chess is over faster than you think. It is the same with small maps. A single mistake usually costs you the game. This of course means that you need to have a good idea what you are doing. To develop such an idea you either need experience or, well, open the map editor and spend a few minutes thinking.

The thing you said about memorizing the way to play a map is only true if there is only one way to play a map. This may sometimes be the case. I cannot confirm this for all small maps though.

I usually build a crow on turn 1 to see what the other guy is doing. My strategy then is vastly different dependent on what I see.

[KGB]

Argammon,

I agree about chess being over fast if you make a mistake (4 move checkmates). But at high levels the first 10-15 moves are basically scripted from well known openings (unless of course you are playing the Fischer variant where players take turns placing their pieces where ever they want instead of the traditional spot). For me Warbarons doesn't start to resemble chess until until the middle game when players have left the opening and are formulating strategies for themselves.

KGB

[Argammon]

KGB,

ok I guess we should stop hijacking the Hero Balancing Thread. Let's just agree that some/many players like to play small maps, me included. Therefore a "ban" is not a good idea.

[Negern]

OK, so if I haven't misunderstood anything, the new heroes will only be available to gold and silver members?

A solution for some of the balancing issues would be to allow recruiting those heroes only when gold/silver plays v other gold/silver's.

About horse lord, I guess that the +10 could be split into several different +10's. Level up on one of them should cost as much as it does now for the "collected" bonus. (atm, his bonus works in three terrains, or have I misunderstood something again?)
This would make it harder to abuse him. It would be more like in beta3, where it was possible to stat up heroes in different terrains for a decreased amount of points.

[BowenTheKotoc]

Actually. Negern, the new heroes are a separate purchase from silver/gold memberships. Each new hero has a one time fee to unlock him for your account forever so anyone can buy them and use them regardless of the type of account they have.

[LPhillips]

About horse lord, I guess that the +10 could be split into several different +10's. Level up on one of them should cost as much as it does now for the "collected" bonus. (atm, his bonus works in three terrains, or have I misunderstood something again?)
This would make it harder to abuse him. It would be more like in beta3, where it was possible to stat up heroes in different terrains for a decreased amount of points.

This is exactly how it already works. That is why I made a huge point over repeatedly stating that it is not +25 leadership; it is +25 leadership on one of 3 possible terrains. He's hard to abuse already

In fact, on maps like The Vale, he's totally useless at all times.

[Homerunner]

I experienced a confusing match few hours ago.

I was testing my new map against IA and saw that they were able to pop out the new heroes while I couldn't, cause I am not a silver/gold user.
My question is: should it be allowed that IAs play new heroes against non-paying players? I won the map without much troubles, yet the question remain.

Also, I noticed that IAs used ONLY the new heroes, wich is quite silly since an IA don't know how to use them strategically. Maybe it's a bug?