new units

[Pillager]

Can we also get the scouts view radius increased to 5.

Yes please.

The big, 3+ wound monsters in DLR certainly seemed much less fragile than their Warbarons counterparts. But, a unit with more wounds gets more benefit from a strength bonus (from say a dragon) than a standard 2 wound unit.

Still, I like variable wound units, I think it adds enough to the game to warrant the balancing difficulties it would create. However, I would leave it for beta5++++...re-balancing the units will likely be a major headache.

[LPhillips]

What I'm thinking of with a 2-for-1 unit is the ability to intentionally suicide it to read enemy stacks. It's not a matter of the current Scout being a viable unit; it's rather a different function. Making the scout more useful will actually increase the need for this second function. As units gain more abilities, it will become increasingly important to see what your opponent has. You can't afford to do this if you are sacrificing production of a truly useful one-turner. So I'm talking about units you can send suicidally into enemy territory and stacks.

However, it could become really irritating to see a hundred battle reports as your enemies continue to bombard you with the cheap units. A new function might be more appropriate, such as allowing a single scout to attack with a 50% chance of survival and 0% chance of inflicting casualties. Allowing that on the Crow might be nice too. It certainly would add a level of realism for moving your armies: protect them from scouting and eliminate enemy scouts ahead of time with fast-movers of your own or a second stack. Because you certainly can't afford to waste a pile of movement points chasing down enemy scouts to punish your enemy for scouting you.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

It would be far better to just have a new skill called 'scouting' and give it to the scout. The skill would allow a unit to look at an enemy stack if you were *right* next to it. It should also allow looking into ruins (again, need to be right next to them) to see the guardians so your hero would know what he was going to face and how many.

This makes the scout useful because it has a unique ability and prevents the need for some kind of unit that suicides itself generating all those annoying battle reports.

KGB

[Pillager]

The 'scouting' ability makes a fair bit of sense, and is certainly a better model of how a (non-suicidal) scout would behave.

Perhaps if only scouts (or other units/heroes with scouting) attack a stack you get an additional button, on the right hand side of the battle window, labelled 'withdraw'. Pressing that button would end the combat and no battle report would be sent to the opponent. However, if the opposing army also has a 'scouting' unit, they are considered to see your scout and no withdrawal is possible.

[LPhillips]

I really think it should be unique to Crows and Scouts. However it's done (spells or otherwise), it's going to become a necessary function. The idea of taking a risk with scouting is nice, although there may be a smoother method for implementing it.

[KGB]

Definitely *not* on Crows. They already have a big advantage over scouts in that they fly. So no need to infringe further on the scouts job. Let crows be used simply to do general scouting/raiding and let scouts do specific scouting/aid stacks in rough terrain. That way there is a reason for both units to exist because right now as Pillager pointed out, I only make bats and never make scouts.

As far as risk goes, you'll have to take a small risk to use the skill simply because you must be next to the stack to view it's contents. So assuming that stack you want to view is a few squares away you probably can't move next to it and escape far enough away to avoid being killed on the opponents turn.

KGB

[LPhillips]

Ah, but you can, because it's a waste of valuable movement points to chase your scout down. Scouts also move faster on difficult terrain than most stacks, allowing them a significant advantage. The risk probably needs to be in using the skill.

[piranha]

I think the scouting skill is really interesting. I will try to include that in beta4.

[Pillager]

I like my way of implementing the scouting...

All that needs to be added graphically is a withdraw button...no special scouting window or whatever.

Also, scouting would entail some risk, but the risk wouldn't come from a random dice roll. It would come from your opponent's stack composition..which is more interesting IMO.

I could be considered biased though

[KGB]

Piranha,

Cool. I can see 3 uses for the scouting skill (as was done in Warlords IV).

1) To look inside enemy stacks
2) To look inside ruins to see the guardians (type and number)
3) To look inside towers to see the stack (type and number)

Pillager,

The only downside to your idea is getting players used to the concept that 'attacking' with a scout only will allow a withdraw button to be available. I suspect players may be confused about why they don't get a withdrawn button at other times and I don't want to encourage players to ask for a withdrawn/retreat option in general.

The other issue with your idea of attacking is that I am hoping scouts can see in ruins too and normally they aren't allowed to even attack a ruin so that would sort of rule out the attack mechanism you described or the ability of scouting to determine what's in the ruin.

KGB