Stupid or unlucky?

[Masterdisaster]

What's about critical strike. Many rightfully complained that there is to much luck and/or variance involved in normal combat. Critical strike just adds to the luckfactor? I would suggest to remove this feature.

[piranha]

KGB:

I'm currently back at the battle functionality since we can start beta3 games now and I'm testing results.

I have a problem right now.
When I run the simulation I didn't bring critical strike into the simulation runs. I realize now that I should have included it. But I seem to recall that you stated somewhere that it should not be in the simulation, is that right?
If so why should it not be in the simulation?

Problem right now is that if my simulation says that Side A must lose at least 2 units, but due to high critical strike values Side A will win without losing 2 units most of the time I come to a situation where the battle keeps restarting a lot. I have a feeling that this will cause endless reruns in some situations. If there are many ghosts / heroes with high critical stack values.

[Masterdisaster]

Piranha,

,let me get back to my old point. Your goal is to revamp the battle system to make it less random. Why don't you remove critical strike as a first step?

[KGB]

MasterDisaster,

Why don't you remove critical strike as a first step?

Because Critical Strike was added as a way for weak units to have a chance to kill/damage super strong hero stacks. The kind that other wise run rampant.

Piranha,

I said not to include it because it was going to be hard to represent in the way you are doing the calculation. But if you can easily add it then it definitely makes sense to do so.

I also wasn't considering the cases of Ghosts making the critical strike values high enough to make a real difference in the final outcome. So you definitely need it in those cases.

KGB

[piranha]

Master:
The critical strike thing was put in the game as a counter to very powerful hero armies. When playing normal warlords2 we had this problem where a powerful hero army was extremy hard to stop using just normal units that you can build.

We have made many balance changes in our game so I don't think this problem as big.

The idea with the ghost unit is also as a type of counter unit that is good vs powerful units, but weak vs weak units.

The whole battle system in warlords is pretty random. There are two sides to this coin as I see it, the bad side is the extreme randomness that occur right now that can decide a game outcome. Hopefully the changes made for beta3 will make enough difference to fix this issue.

The good side with a random system is the uncertainty of the outcome when you go to battle. You have to consider what will happen if you lose even if you have a advantage. If you can afford taking the chance and lose or if you need to get more units first.
I see critical strike as a parameter that you need to take into account when facing a opponent. We have thought about adding magic as well later.
Extreme outcome is not what we want but without randomness I think the game would lose much of what is good about it.

From Beta3 Neutrals won't have critical strike chances.

KGB:
Oki I have added it now and it looks like its working.

[Masterdisaster]

Mathematically there is not much difference between a critical strike, say roll a 2 on a 100, or a light infantry killing a dragon. Both chances are very slim but can happen.

There are only very few instances where there is any difference between the critical strike mechanic and luck in ordinary game rolls. In, say, 95-99% of all cases CS just adds extra randomness.

Where do I see a difference?

1) The ghost example. If the critical strike value is really high you may see it as a counter to strong units.

2) Say you attack something with a strong unit. Then it may be advantageous to add 1 cannon fodder unit like a bad to prevent losing the strong unit due to bad luck.

Why not remove critical strike from all but a selected few units like ghosts?

[piranha]

Hm I think you are right. Perhaps only 2-3 units should have critical strike.
Ghost, and wolf can keep it. Perhaps one more unit.

[KGB]

Piranha,

Hm I think you are right. Perhaps only 2-3 units should have critical strike.
Ghost, and wolf can keep it. Perhaps one more unit.

That was my original suggestion and how DLR did it. Only a few units had assassination (critical strike).

I'd make the Orc the other unit with it. It follows the theme that Orc/Wolfriders are assassins just as DLR gave the Gnoll race the assassination skill. It also give the Orc unit some value other than swamp combat bonus.

Orc: 5%
WolfRider: 15%
Ghost: +5% group

KGB

[Masterdisaster]

Don't forget to increase the price of the orc though.

Maybe the ghost should have 15% CS and +5% group?

[piranha]

I have set the orc to 175 now.

The ghost is currently at 25% critical and +8 critical stack. Will test that a bit before he will keep it but its a really expendise unit and pretty crappy at the moment.
Might lower the STR instead to make him vulnerable to big amount of low level units but really dangerous to a powerful stack.