Beta 3 Changes

[KGB]

Any chance we can get a list of changes / new features that will appear in Beta 3.

Specifically I'm thinking about changes to units (stats, costs etc) in addition to the new map, fog of war, any new game options etc.

Also is the map editor ready yet for map creation for Beta 3 maps? I'm hoping to have the Bullrun map ready to go for Beta 3 so there it at least one map (well I assume you'll port over the Riverwar map as well).

KGB

[SnotlinG]

I think we will compile a more complete list when we get closer to the launchdate.
But some main areas are:

- New graphics
- New battlefunctionality/stats (Piranha will have to come with the details here)
- Mapeditor open for everyone
- System for voting what maps to be official maps
- Basic ruins/temples
- Option to play with or without Fog of War
- Possible to set wincondition by the host
- A lot of bugs fixed from beta2
- Speedgames
- Some kind of ladder functionality I think
- New herolevel system

[piranha]

Map editor very soon ready for mapmaking.

I'll post the stats on changed units

Dwarf - no change
Dragon - cost 2000
pegasi - cost 1150
Devil - cancel positive str based stack bonuses, cost 1800
Scout - no change
Light Inf - no change
Giant - no change
Wizard - No change
Minotaur - no change
Bat - Changed to Crow, same stats
Wolf - No change
spider - no change
Light Cav - Str 2, +2 open
Heavy Cav - No change
Griffon - No change
Unicorn - STR 6, Cost 1550, Forest +1, move forest, cancel all terrain based bonus, build time 4
Orc - cost 175, 5 critical strike
Elf - no change yet
Catapult - move 12, cost 1100
pikeman - no change
heavy inf - no change
Elephant - cost 1100,
Demon - Str 8, cost 1450, unaffected by city walls
Elemental - No change
Ghost - Critical strike 25%, Critical stack +6
Medusa - no Change
archon - cost 1900
Battering ram - no change

Critical strike removed from all units except ghost, orc, wolfrider.

[KGB]

Piranha,

Is the demon going to continue to be a flying unit? If it is, that would worry me quite a bit having a 3 turn, 8 strength unit that flies and is immune to city walls. With a Hero, Pegasi and a few Demons you'd have an almost unbeatable stack (esp since it would bless). It would be much better if the demon didn't fly or at least took 4 turns to make with that strength/flight/skill combo.

KGB

[piranha]

Yes it is a flying unit.
It can be made into a 4 turn unit.
Its comparable to the griffon which is str 8 vs city unless there is a unicorn there, and 200 gold cheaper to buy. But making the demon a 4 turn unit might be a good balance.
The demon is unaffected by citywalls when defending as well.

[KGB]

Piranha,

Yes but when the Gryffon attacks cities the defenders are getting their city wall bonus (assuming no siege unit). So the +2 will likely be offset by some bonus for the defender. That city wall bonus is pretty important actually because of how combat works (a 3 strength units is 50% better than a 2 strength unit so even a +1 bonus from walls is big). Also the Demon always is always 8 strength regardless of terrain where the Gryffon is only 8 in cities and the Demon moves further (18 vs 16). Given all that the Gryffon is a very bad deal compared to the Demon.

I look at the Demon unit as basically being a flying Siege unit because it's ignoring the walls. Several demons (3-4) backed by a Pegasi/Hero is essentially a flying siege stack because the Demons ignore the walls and if that stack is blessed it's flying 11 strength units on all terrain (right now only 5 turn dragons give that).

I'd feel *much* more comfortable if the Demon was a 3-turn 6 strength unit or even a 5 turn 8 strength unit. Remember the effects of blessing are going to change things quite a bit (especially if you are going to allow cumulative blessing at multiple temples, something I also highly recommend you don't allow) so at 6 strength the Demon can easily bless up to 7 making it still a viable unit due to its flight and special bonus.

The other thing I'm wary of with the Demon is rendering the Elemental as a useless unit. Right now it's a 3 turn 6 strength unit with +3 attack power. So when attacking cities it's a natural 9 strength unit. That's almost the exact functionality of the Demon (minus the demon negating the wall bonus). At 3 turns, 8 strength in all situations the Demon basically renders the Elemental obsolete due to it's much slower speed, no flight and special bonus only when attacking.

So you have to walk a delicate line to not make the Elemental/Gryffon obsolete. That's why I am suggesting it be 3 turn 6 or 5 turn 8 (basically a dragon).

KGB

P.S. Incidentally why did you lower the Unicorn to 6 strength? I thought it was pretty nicely placed right now at 4 turns, 7 strength. The Forest move and combat bonus makes sense.

P.P.S. The other thing that definitely will need to be done is reduce the Lt Cavalry open combat bonus to +1 *if* you are allowing multiple blessings because at 20 move those units could be blessed several times depending on temple locations.

[piranha]

Hm. The idea of the new demon is a powerful attack unit. I find that when two players with a strong army capture a city close to each other they just sit there and wait. The attacker will lose so noone want to attack. Killing 20-25 units with 8 will often be a loss even if you have a better army because there is so many low level units there that will wear down your better army.
Its true that the elemental was created with the same purpose but it has a drawback with is its really slow so you can often kill it with tons of crap before it can attack. I still think there is need for something to attack a city full of junk +1 pegasi.

I've changed the demon to 4 turns, 1500, STR 7, +1 when attacking.

With its new bonuses and cancel terrain bonus (which works in cities) it seemd like a good buy even at STR 6.

[KGB]

Piranha,

I find that when two players with a strong army capture a city close to each other they just sit there and wait. The attacker will lose so noone want to attack.

But is this a real problem? I mean there are plenty of other cities on the map to attack. You can just 'go around' the city or target another city. That's what I do when someone has a city full of armies. Plus those armies cost money to maintain which always exceeds the income of the city so it is draining your treasury.

Killing 20-25 units with 8 will often be a loss even if you have a better army because there is so many low level units there that will wear down your better army.

Again I ask if that is a problem. I would say that is what I would expect. You want there to be the ability to play some defense in order to have a strong point. There is nothing wrong with it taking 3-4 stacks to capture a city that itself contains 3-4 stacks. The big complaint was it was taking 10-12 stacks to capture a city that contained 3-4 stacks if it was even possible at all.

Its true that the elemental was created with the same purpose but it has a drawback with is its really slow so you can often kill it with tons of crap before it can attack.

Yes. That keeps the Elemental in balance. Otherwise it would be too good a unit if it moved further. Right now you have to protect it with other units when dragging it towards cities. However games with fog of war will help the Elemental (and siege units) because players hiding in cities won't be able to see what's coming unless they are actively sending out units.

I still think there is need for something to attack a city full of junk +1 pegasi.

First it's important to define junk. I consider all 1 and 2 strength units junk (cannon fodder). 3 and 4 strength units aren't junk, they are reasonably valuable esp the Pikemen/Dwarves as city defenders and OK attackers in masses. This is one reason why changing the Lt Cavalry to 2 strength will help and why I continue to lobby for the Elf to also be reduced to 2 strength (and be +3 against fliers instead of +2).

Siege unit + Devil + Spiders. That will kill an awful lot of junk units. Typically I can kill 24+ men with that combo. Even Siege unit + Spiders + Pegasi kills plenty of junk units. If you can manage it, a Medusa is better than a Pegasi or Medusi+Pegasi combo instead of Seige/Pegasi or Siege/Medusa.

Or several stacks of 6 Wolfrider + 2 Ghosts / 5 Orc + 3 Ghosts (something that will be much more common in Beta3 with more money in ruins and if you allow Ghosts to be part of neutral city production).

Remember there are going to be quite a few changes in Beta3. Fixing the Devil to work properly will be one of the biggest as it will no longer be able to cancel everything as it does now. Then add in the fact that you can now bless and that will give the attacker a +1 bonus from blessing to all his units making the better units do more damage. More gold will allow more/better/specific production units (Siege units/Spiders/Minotaurs/Gryffons/Elementals) to be built for city attacking. What would also help is to ensure everyone has the battering ram as one of their capitol city units (Something I did on Bullrun map) so they have access to siege in the late game.

On top of all that will be fog of war so that it will be possible to just 'go around' a city without the defender realizing it unless they are actively sending out units.

I've changed the demon to 4 turns, 1500, STR 7, +1 when attacking.
With its new bonuses and cancel terrain bonus (which works in cities) it seemd like a good buy even at STR 6.

So then it no longer has the ability to ignore city walls?

KGB

[SCIkick]

Just want to say can't wait to play with all these changes sounds cool as hell!

How about being able to name your kingdom something other than the player name (The Horde, Deathlord , Silver Knights, etc....) ? Guess I can post that in the wish list...

[piranha]

SCIkick:
Yes there was a request to be anonymous in the game and we will take a look if we can have the option to play under another name for beta 3.

KGB:
I know and I agree that it might not be a problem, not in the games that I have played at least. Perhaps it could be a problem on a map where its harder to go around and attack elsewhere or on a smaller map, not sure.
Its probably more the idea that is that there should be a counter for everything.

Demon is 4 turns, STR 7 +1 when attack, cost 1500 and unaffected by city wall. The city wall thing apply when it is defending too. So its a unit that you dont want to sit around with.
Do you still think it is too good? 4 turns is quite a long time, 5 turns will give you STR 10 (dragon) so think its worth testing at this level. Its after all its a bonus that only apply to the unit itself, not to the whole army.