Wizard Allies

[Pillager]

In warlords 2 the wizard had 50 movement, 7 strength, and +1 stack, took 4 turns to build, and was a very good ally.

I had a Hero and two allies show up for a couple of thousand gold in one of my games. The two allies ended up being wizards. These wizards are 5 strength 30 speed two turners, not an inspiring ally at all. I felt rather ripped off.

Having allies that are only high end 2 turn units is not, IMO, a good idea.

[KGB]

Pillager,

The Wizard is only worthy of being an ally in the early game turns (<T12). Though I don't remember it ever being 7 strength. It was and is only 5 in the game I have. But maybe it got changed in Deluxe vs Classic.

I don't even think the Elemental is an ally either since it comes with no bonus other than it's own +3 attack bonus and is slow moving. I'd much rather get Medusa than Elementals for my allies. Allies really should be limited to Demons/Devil/Dragons/Archons and maybe Ghosts/Medusa. Ideally by Beta4 we can get a couple more units that are worthy of being allies.

Of course I do know that the number / quality of allies you get in beta3 is changing quite a bit in that you won't get 5 dragons/archons/devils unless you have 3K+ gold to spend. So maybe we still need some cheaper Wizard/Elemental allies in the early turns (<T12) when they are still useful.

KGB

[Pillager]

Yeah, wizards are actually str 6 in deluxe...and they are sweet.

The special abilities of both the wizard and elemental are only a factor if and when they are in the front line of battle...while a unit like a pegasi/medusa uses its ability in every battle, even if it isn't in personal danger, and their abilities are good in any combat situation..not only if they attack or are fighting fliers.

Maybe its just me, but I think a wizard (thematically speaking) epitomizes the "support from the rear" type of ally. I see them standing as far from combat as possible, flinging fireballs and casting supportive spells.

[piranha]

I think that not all good units should be support units. There are already so many support units in the top so there need to be some battle units too. I think wizards are pretty good the way they are now if you just look at them as something different from most units. With FOW they have more potential since that move can be used walk unseen into enemy territory.

In beta 3 you will know what allied units that comes with the hero and how many. You will get hero offers much easier if you have money. All you need to do is click away them until you get an offer with the allied unit you prefer. Of course the more money you have the bigger chance to get good allies and more allies. Max 3 this time.

[Pillager]

Piranha,

I'm not saying that the wizard isn't a decent unit, it is....especially during the early game. But I could say the same for elves, they are very good 1 turn units...are they suitable allies? I think not.

I like variety too...and many of the warlords II allies were somewhat similar....ghost, worm, elemental. But, the wizard was never one of those, its huge speed made it quite unique. Honestly, I think this (5 strength, 30 move) incarnation of the wizard is much more vanilla..it is basically a powered up light cavalry.

Some allies should be front line combatants. Ok, sure.... but a frontline combatant ally with only 5 strength is kinda ridiculous...they are barely a match for most 1 turn units....and +3 vs fliers? There are only a handful of flying units in the game. Besides, right now I use tons of stacks of fodder lead by a demon. From a flavor perspective, that seems somewhat odd. Wouldn't it make more sense for a demon to be charging into battle, and the wizard to be supporting the army from the rear?

Part of the ridiculousness of the wizard in the early part of the game, is that fact that you can crank them out in two turns. You can smash them into cities until you get lucky, and (if they die) you can quickly replace them.
If the wizard was a four or five turn unit, its high speed wouldn't be as unbalancing. Throwing a lone wizard at a city would be more of a risk, and fewer wizards would mean a slower overall expansion. Plus, wizardly training takes time...many dusty tomes must be read, scrolls deciphered, beards grown...in that context, I don't think two turns makes a whole lot of sense.

Being able to see what allies a new hero is bringing with him will make balancing the allies less important....but I won't be hiring any heroes with wizards beyond the first 10 turns (unless desperate) and I doubt I will be hiring any heroes with elementals period (very slow and an attack bonus is a terrible combination).

[KGB]

Pillager,

Wizards in War2 were hopelessly unbalanced even at 5 strength, much less 6 strength. I recall many games getting 4-5 Wizards from a hidden ruin on turn 4-5 and owning 50% of the map by turn 10-12. It was so bad that whenever I played hotseat with friends Wizards were banned units before turn 20. So if you got/made any you had to move/place them in the capitol until turn 20. In DLR online play they got banned completely.

Piranha,

I agree the game does need more front line units. I also think Wizards are perfect as they are right now with their strong anti air power and high movement. They will look better in Beta3 because they can also easily go get blessed thanks to their move.

The bigger question isn't that they are allies, but that you paid so much for allies and had no idea what you were getting in Beta2. Since that's fixed in Beta3 it's not a problem to have Wizards as allies.

KGB

[Pillager]

KGB,

Curious series of statements ..the wizard in DLR was a hero, not a unit...I can't see how any statement made about the DLR wizard is remotely relevant.

The wizard in warlords 2 was overpowered. I agree....however this wizard is underpowered. I think we can all agree that it would be a pathetic 3 turn unit....and so too weak to be an ally.

[KGB]

Pillager,

Curious series of statements ..the wizard in DLR was a hero, not a unit...I can't see how any statement made about the DLR wizard is remotely relevant.

In DLR I was talking about the Cockatrice. That's the 4 strength unit (+1 vs cities) that moves 50 that got banned in DLR online play. Sorry for not mentioning it by name but I assumed you'd get that I meant the Cockatrice.

The wizard in warlords 2 was overpowered. I agree....however this wizard is underpowered. I think we can all agree that it would be a pathetic 3 turn unit....and so too weak to be an ally.

It's not a 3 turn unit. It's a 2 turn unit and is going to remain a 2 turn unit. That makes them very useful units esp since they can now easily bless to 6 strength. Lt Cavalry is going down to 2 strength so it will look a lot less good compared to a Wizard. You will be thankful for all the Wizards when flying heroes with Demons come calling

The real loser is going to be the Devil. It went from being WAY over powered in Beta2 to being almost useless in Beta3. That's because with the Demon losing it's +1 stack bonus and it no longer negating the Medusa's negative stack bonus the only real unit left it negates is the Pegasi. Yes, it also negates the occasional Dragon or other Devil but those will be much less common. So it's basically an anti-Pegasi unit. Probably no longer needs to cost 2200 gold or take 5 turns to build. A 1700 cost and 4 turns makes it on par with the Unicorn which is now resembles in power. In truth, I think the Devil should retain the ability to negate the Medusa's bonus.

KGB

[Pillager]

Riiiight, the cockatrice...that thing was ridiculously fast. 50 speed +move bonuses?

I agree the wizard is decent 2 turn unit. I just don't think 2 turn units should be eligible for ally status.

In deluxe the weakest ally was the ghost....7 str,+1 stack, move 20...3 turns to build. That is a low level ally. It has an impact on the game, lands on the map with a bit of weight.

[Pillager]

I agree that the devil should negate the medusa.

Just a quick comparison between the medusa and elemental.... both are slow both 3 turners... the medusa is strength 7, the elemental 6. the medusa has the second (or perhaps 3rd) best support power in the game...

So one unit is a great front line unit and the other a powerful support unit? Even one on one, with the elemental attacking it ends up being 8 strength vs 7. If the medusa attacks its 7 strength vs 5.

If the two units have some fodder with them then the medusa impacts the battle in a big way before it ever gets involved in personal combat. The elemental does not.