Production vs Hero

[Pillager]

My starting hero spends the early part of most games looting ruins. So, before turn 10 I often find myself with 1500-2500 gold. Back when I was playing Darklords, I would rarely spend this gold on unit production...preferring to horde it until a hero with some impressive allies showed up. However, playing beta 3, I find myself buying expensive units instead. Why? Here are a few reasons....

1)Beta 3 heroes are weaklings. Compared to Darklords (or even beta 2) heroes, beta 3 heroes take quite a while to become anything remotely impressive. The decent abilities cost many levels worth of xp, and the cheap abilities aren't worth having.

2)Beta 3 heroes don't bring much in the way of allies. My best hero offer to date was 2 demons or 1 devil (depending on what you prefer)...and I could have bought devil production for the hero's hiring price.

3)Allies aren't all that. An elemental? A medusa? They are good in their own way, but they are very slow, and I prefer my heroes to be more mobile. A wizard? Its a 2 turn unit for a reason. None of these are 'must have' units for me.

4)Must have units. There are units I need, and if I don't find cities that produce them fairly early on, then I am forced to buy them. They are...Pegasi, battering ram/catapult, and Unicorns. Most of the allies accompanying heroes are not nearly as useful.

5)No quests/No ruin allies/No items. Heroes can't quest (like they could in Darklords) which makes them inherently less valuable. They can't get allies in ruins..so the allies they bring are all they will ever directly obtain...and the lack of items means they always have to take the hard road to self improvement.

[KGB]

Pillager,

Some good points/reasoning there.

1) I agree. I think L4 for a Command +1 is fine. Just make it cost the full 30 points.

2) Strange. I've gotten 2-3 Demons several times. I've also gotten 2 Devils once, 2 Medusa several times. Given that there is an excess of gold in Beta3 I am happy that the game is giving fewer allies. BTW, you may not remember this discussion but the number / type (3 vs 5 turners) of allies is now tied to the amount of gold you have to spend. To get the 4 and 5 allies you need to save 3-4K worth of gold. So if you are buying heroes/production and not waiting you are missing out.

3) I don't find any of those units must haves for me. A Dreadlord negates the need for a Pegasi until later in the game. So on small maps you can forgo the Pegasi entirely and go with 3-4 Dreadlords using his level up points for movement since waiting till L5 for +1 command takes forever. The Battering Ram/Catapult is only needed for late game attacks on cities full of enemy units not for neutrals. So I never buy this unit until late game. I haven't yet bought or even made a Unicorn except in one game where I found it in the neutral city. So we have entirely different ideas about what's needed and what's not. The only thing I need in turns 1-15 are Bats (esp if they can bless to 2 strength for scouting and harassing the enemy), Hv Infantry (to attack neutrals) and Elven Archers (to defend bat raids). Sometime around turn 15 I'll buy a Pegasi city if I don't find one because by then I need that cheap +1 bonus.

KGB

[Zajoman]

I feel that hero development is too slow in B3. Not only does it take too long for a hero to gain a level, but then the level up does almost nothing for the hero, because you don't have enough points to spend on anything useful. That's quite disappointing from a player's viewpoint. I think every level up should grant a bonus in at least one area (command, movement, strength, etc.) It was like this in B2 and I think it was better. In almost every strategy game with RPG features out there, when your hero gains a level, it's a noticeable step up and you can feel the difference instantly. Just like in B2.

[Pillager]

So, Heroes are at least a little on the feeble side, on this (it seems) we can agree.

Maybe I've gotten unlucky with allies. As an experiment, I'll save up 4-5k and see what happens. Still, a hero asking for 4+ k had better come with a significant force. I could buy dragon and devil production for that price, and crank out one of those fiends every 2.5 turns.

I like playing on large maps with 6-8 players. I find that I get into 8 vs 8 conflicts fairly early, and I want to dominate those encounters. I like to be able to produce my favored units early on, so that I have them in number for the mid-game. Depending on the map and my proximity to a +1 temple, I may never build a single bat all game.

A siege unit is valuable whenever you are attacking a city, and their value only increases as the game progresses. Why wait unit the late game to build them, when they can help you from turn 1 onwards?

[KGB]

Pillager,

Maybe I've gotten unlucky with allies. As an experiment, I'll save up 4-5k and see what happens. Still, a hero asking for 4+ k had better come with a significant force. I could buy dragon and devil production for that price, and crank out one of those fiends every 2.5 turns.

I believe I paid around 3K for a hero + 2 Devils in one of my games last night. I consider that a reasonable price given I get a hero plus 2 very important allies immediately that would cost 2K to buy take 10 turns to build and require a large upkeep in gold each turn (allies require no upkeep).

A siege unit is valuable whenever you are attacking a city, and their value only increases as the game progresses. Why wait unit the late game to build them, when they can help you from turn 1 onwards?

Because the math doesn't support it. For example lets say you and I have 2 cities. In one you make Hv Infantry and the other you make a Battering Ram. In my 2 cities I make Hv Infantry. In 3 turns you have a stack of 1 Battering Ram + 3 Hv Infantry and I have 6 Hv Infantry. Now lets assume those 2 stacks battle.

If I am the defender in a L1 city, it's your 3,3,3,4 vs my 3,3,3,3,3,3 (you negated my walls) and I win 75% of the time with 2 men left.
If either of us is the defender in a non-open, non-city terrain it's the same 3,3,3,4 vs my 3,3,3,3,3,3 and I win 75% of the time with 2 men left.
If either of us is the defender in a open terrain it's your 4,4,4,4 vs my 4,4,4,4,4,4 and I win 84% of the time with 2.5 men left.
If you are the defender in a L1 city, it's your 4,4,4,5 vs my 3,3,3,3,3,3 the winning percentage is even at 50% and 1 man left each.

So why again would I build siege units early on when masses matter more? Plus you pay more to buy the production, for upkeep of those better units which adds up over time since presumably you are trying not to have your 3 turn unit killed.

KGB

P.S. Incidentally, blessed bats with a Pegasi are 3 strength, 20 move flying stacks. Basically think flying Lt Cavalry in Beta2. In the early game those devastate an enemy when they only have 1-2 defenders in their cities.

[Pillager]

KGB,

Your math might work for the very specific situation you are referring to. But, it fails to illustrate the bigger picture.

If you are busting open neutrals with stacks of heavy infantry, then you are likely taking more losses then I would be if I brought along my trusty ram (or pegasi, or both). So, you may not end up with such a large numerical advantage. Also, the battering ram is only a 2 turn unit, so when you compare 6 hvy inf vs 3 hvy inf plus a ram, you are comparing 6 turns of production to 5.

I agree, blessed bats are very versatile, but without blessing they are less so. I know that they can be used to scout, and harass...but I prefer to build stronger units when I can get away with it.

[KGB]

Pillager,

If you are busting open neutrals with stacks of heavy infantry, then you are likely taking more losses then I would be if I brought along my trusty ram (or pegasi, or both).

A Pegasi is entirely different than a siege unit since the +1 bonus applies everywhere, not just when you are attacking cities. Getting an early Pegasi is something I do often do. But siege almost never.

Also 90% of the cities on the maps are only defended by a simple 1 turn unit like a scout/Lt Cavalry/Elf/Hv Infantry etc. Those cities don't incur large losses. I know this simply because I always end up vastly outnumbering my opponents in every game I play including ones where my opponent has more cities than I do.

So, you may not end up with such a large numerical advantage. Also, the battering ram is only a 2 turn unit, so when you compare 6 hvy inf vs 3 hvy inf plus a ram, you are comparing 6 turns of production to 5.

This is true. But on every odd number turn you are going to be at a disadvantage due to the longer build times. So that has to be taken into account.

I'm not saying I never build siege, just that I find it's useless for my game style until mid game because so much combat in my games takes place outside cites because that's where I prefer to fight. Once cities get filled with large numbers of defenders (more than 8) or you are going to have a clash of very strong stacks on both sides that extra siege unit helps. But not until then.

I agree, blessed bats are very versatile, but without blessing they are less so. I know that they can be used to scout, and harass...but I prefer to build stronger units when I can get away with it.

So we have a complete difference in playing styles as I am a swarmer. I prefer large masses of units swarming all over my enemy in full offense mode until he is forced to sit and defend his cities allowing me to pick them off one at a time.

KGB

[Zajoman]

I can attest to that. KGB makes this game look like some kind of breeding ants simulator sometimes.