The forgotten Green Dragon & how to fix him

[kenc80]

So when I play against the AI, I love the green dragon, I almost always buy him as I fly around and ruin hunt. I've gotten my paladin hero up to 28 or so moves with the boots & walk stuff.

So its a really fun unit. However, I have rarely ever seen this unit played in any games. If I ever see it I pillage it. So I think it needs to be tinkered with. Here's my theory: Let's color it black and call it the "dark dragon" or "black dragon" and give it some fear, because you know, dragons are scary and all .

So all I say you do is change group move to +3 instead of +4, add a -3 fear, and move HP back to 2 from 3.

I think this would be a cool unit with just a little more value and a nice touch of fear to go along with the moves. I think it would get some play.

Now all that to say that if you specifically named the dragon the green dragon in homage to Lord of the Rings (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/The_Green_Dragon_Inn) then I guess maybe dont change the name

ok just a thought....


Ken

[magian]

I like the green dragon, its a tough and mobile unit. I especially like that it is a 3 wound flyer. Still, I haven't used them much in this beta (although I don't pillage them) because so many other units got a boost, and poor 'ol greenie got none :/

Don't see why we couldn't have a black dragon though. Seems to me that fear makes a lot of sense for a dragon, and we don't have any flying fear units.

[KGB]

If we are going to have a Fear dragon it should be the Green Dragon. Mostly because in DLR, the Green Dragon came with Fear, the Red came with Chaos and the Silver and Gold came with Morale (all in keeping with the AD&D themes). So it helps players transitioning from that game.

If it is going to get Fear, it should get Fear +5 at least otherwise why bother since the Kraken/Medusa can already provide that much. So as a 4 turn unit it needs to be as good as it's 3 turn counter parts AND it needs to remain at 3 hits.


However a much easier and better fix would be to simply follow the DLR model and allow group move to stack. So that multiple Green Dragons gave 4, 8, 12 extra moves. Then you'd see them made more often when you wanted a fast moving, hard hitting stack. This would open up another potential end game strategy to pursue. To prevent things from getting too out of hand the max group move can be limited to +12 so that 3 Greens could appear in a single stack and still provide a bonus.

KGB

[kenc80]

KGB if you compare the dragons:

KGB Green: 1800 cost, 4 turns, 3HP, +5 fear +4 stackable Group Move
Red Dragon:2200 cost, 5 turns 2HP, +10 morale.

That becomes a no brainer.

In my opinon, the red is already a tough decision at +10,2HP instead of +12,3HP

I was suggesting the +3fear,2HP in simply keeping with balance for the red. Not against an insane greeny, I just think the red dragon becomes an ally only unit at that point.

[KGB]

KenC80,

If you read closely what I wrote it was:

Two Options:

A) Green Dragon - KenC/KGB) 1800 cost, 4 turns, 2HP, +5 fear, +3 Group Move
B) Green Dragon - KGB Ideal) 1800 cost, 4 turns, 3HP, +3 Stackable Group Move

I did not intend my ideal suggestion of stackable group move be added to what you proposed.

My ideal Green Dragon opens up a whole new strategy that players can pursue: That of a fast moving stack filled with Green Dragons. Just as you can currently now pursue strategies based on Ghosts, or Demons swarm power etc or the more traditional one with Red/Devil/Archon. The game needs more options for players so that everything isn't reduced to the same strategy/builds.

Your suggestion does help the Green Dragon but overall doesn't really open up anything new, it just cannibalizes from the Kraken/Medusa since you'll now have 3 units with the same Fear value. My guess is it would obsolete the Medusa for those players who can afford to get the faster moving flying Green.

KGB

[LPhillips]

Medusa is a hard one. It's a slow-moving ally, rather difficult to make it really worthwhile. Just beefing it might be a functional fix, making it a 4-turner with moderately good move and at least +5 fear (maybe even +7?) We don't have a really good Fear ally on land.

I like the +3 stackable move Green Dragon. But, I believe that the limit ought to be the best 3 units, not a number. Then balancing +move units becomes across the board becomes easy. I think it's worth considering including the Hero among the pool, rather than stacking him onto the 3. We don't ever want +20 move wandering around. +12 would still be quite feasible with the top 3 units including the hero. 3+3+6.

The point driving my view is that units are largely balanced by their movement, so +movement needs to be very limited. A simple cap (say +12) allows units like Mammoth to be stacked until they can acquire that high movement, and fails to properly reward players for acquiring units with higher +move bonuses. The 3-unit cap (tooltipped "Stacks for up to 3 units") prevents all future balance problems (overpowered and underpowered) with implementing the +move feature on other units and items. For example, +1 group move, 1- or 2-turn unit might be implemented in the future. Could never be abused

[KGB]

LPhillips,

Why only top 3 units? It seems easier to me to control it balance wise by simply limiting the maximum stackable group move to +12.

That way in the future if some 2 turn unit gets a +1 group move and you put 8 in a stack that stack would have +8 group move. So if someone wants to stack Mammoths for multiple +2, God Bless em. I honestly don't think that would seriously unbalance things because such stacks would be rare and hard to accumulate.

And I completely agree that hero + items is included in the +12 cap. So if you end up taking group move several times with a couple of heroes and find a group move item then that hero stack could reach +12 without ever needing a Dragon.

KGB

[LPhillips]

LPhillips,

Why only top 3 units? It seems easier to me to control it balance wise by simply limiting the maximum stackable group move to +12.

That way in the future if some 2 turn unit gets a +1 group move and you put 8 in a stack that stack would have +8 group move.
KGB

A simple cap (say +12) allows units like Mammoth to be stacked until they can acquire that high movement, and fails to properly reward players for acquiring units with higher +move bonuses. The 3-unit cap (tooltipped "Stacks for up to 3 units") prevents all future balance problems (overpowered and underpowered) with implementing the +move feature on other units and items. For example, +1 group move, 1- or 2-turn unit might be implemented in the future. Could never be abused

Maybe I should elaborate? The above is unintelligible to me, and I wrote it.
So... A cap of 3 bonuses means both that players are well rewarded for using more powerful +groupmove, and that there's never potential abuse for gathering large numbers of +move units. I see it as a potential balancing nightmare when other units and abilities are implemented in the future. To list a possible abuse: Several Mammoths and other +movement units with a couple of Elementals. Another would be to stack +move units and group others with them that you may intend to move individually after gaining the bonus. I think it would also reward the use of more powerful +groupmove better than simply freeing extra slots in your stack.

However, it's a two-sided decision. It means you have to watch out for the total bonus a hero can gain, but it also means that gaining +10 on a hero won't be unrewarding. It means you never have to worry about balancing units that receive groupmove in the future, allowing you to use it as a perk for units of varying cost and level. But it also means disallowing some tactical options alongside the potential abuses.
It could be harder for players to intuitively understand.

[kenc80]

KGB Wrote:Two Options:

A) Green Dragon - KenC/KGB) 1800 cost, 4 turns, 2HP, +5 fear, +3 Group Move
B) Green Dragon - KGB Ideal) 1800 cost, 4 turns, 3HP, +3 Stackable Group Move

I did not intend my ideal suggestion of stackable group move be added to what you proposed.

My ideal Green Dragon opens up a whole new strategy that players can pursue: That of a fast moving stack filled with Green Dragons. Just as you can currently now pursue strategies based on Ghosts, or Demons swarm power etc or the more traditional one with Red/Devil/Archon. The game needs more options for players so that everything isn't reduced to the same strategy/builds.

I like either unit and I do like KGB your ideas on the new strategy the Stackable Group Move (SGM) would open up: +3 SGM is nice and it would add another strategy like you say. If hero has 18 moves, +2GM points & boots of tuor (+4GM) & blessed thats 26GM. So with the +12 cap from your dragons he would come to 38 moves with his dragons checking in at +36 right? So the stack would max move 36. Thats pretty awesome but not game unbalancing awesome IMO. and not all heroes will get the boots of tuor so max stack move would probably be around 32 34 for this super stack. I dont think thats all that high personally. You could probably limit the moves at +14 and still be ok. imagine a stack of 1 medusa, 2 ele's,1 arch, 3 greens +hero. Getting that medusa up to 24 or 26 moves would be super sweet. LP what do you think about that +12 cap vs say a +14 cap?

By the way, I still think the red should be +12. I hated nerfing him down to +10.
Also, KGB since I'm an old War2 guy I hate the >2 HP so I'd make our super green this way:

Ken Green: $1900, 24M, 4T, 2HP, +2 fear,+3 SGM, 35 STR
KGB Green: $1800, 24M, 4T, 3HP, +3 SGM, 35 STR
Current Red: $2200, 22m, 5T, 2HP, +10 Morale, STR 40.

hmmmm which one are you buying? Definitely either Green over the red. Still No question....and mine would definitely nerf the medusa.


Ken

[KGB]

LPhillips,

Would stacking multiple Mammoths be abuse or good tactics? There is a fine line between one and the other. Since your method would allow 3 of them to give +6, I'm hard pressed to see why 4-6 to get +8-12 would be abusing the system. You'll need to waste a lot of good armies (and production turns) to be speeding stacks around if you want to group more than 3 Mammoths together and by the time you put 6 in a stack to reach +12 you can only speed up 2 other armies as opposed to only needing 4 dragons allowing 4 other armies.

In addition to making it easier to understand a cap of 12, it will be much easier to code too. Just add up all the group move for a stack into groupMove. Then have one line that says move = move + min(groupMove, 12). With only the top 3 units, Snotling has to write code to search for the top 3 units in each stack. That will slow the server since it to has to run that check on every stack.

KenC80,

Ken Green: $1900, 24M, 4T, 2HP, +2 fear,+3 SGM, 35 STR
KGB Green: $1800, 24M, 4T, 3HP, +3 SGM, 35 STR
Current Red: $2200, 22m, 5T, 2HP, +10 Morale, STR 40.

hmmmm which one are you buying? Definitely either Green over the red. Still No question....and mine would definitely nerf the medusa.

Not sure why you'd not buy a Red here. The 10 bonus is a LOT more valuable than what either Green brings. The only way you aren't buying a Red is if you already have a Red or your opponent is making Devils. My Greens are meant to fight with their 3rd HP (which they will need against Demon swarms) while you want your Reds in the back of the stack.

KGB