Balancing the Lvl 1 units

[Pillager]

Most players seem to favor swarms of 1 turn units backed up by support units. I think this is because some of the level one units are slightly overpowered when compared to their 2 turn counterparts. Also, there are some level one units that barely get used (like the light inf) because the power gap between them and the other level one units is too great.

I think the following changes would make for a more varied game (in terms of army composition).

Bat...no change.
Scout....some good changes have already been proposed.
Light inf...no change.
Orc.....remove critical strike, add pillage bonus or banding, reduce swamp bonus to +1.
Heavy inf....remove +1 bonus in open.
Light cav....Reduce open bonus to +1.
Elf....no change.
Dwarf....reduce stength to 3, +1 in city, +2 in hills.
Pikemen....reduce open bonus to +1 (or reduce strength to 3, and either reduce cost or increase movement by 2).

[KGB]

The thing about making some changes is that they are based on Beta3. The rules in Beta4 are going to change so that may make units less/more valuable and it's impossible to tell right now which changes may make units less/more useful. So I'm leery of changing anything unless it's really badly broken and to me the only things really badly broken are the costs of a few units.

The other thing not shown in your list is cost of unit. Right now Pike/Dwarves cost SO much compared to the other units. Players basically *never* buy Dwarves/Pikes, they only uses the ones they find for 'free'. So unless the costs are going to be re-done it's hard to re-do these units. That is the reason I suspect that the army composition isn't varied because players only use what they find and never spend money on more expensive 1 turn units.

The other thing that needs to be re-done is the random map code that assigns production. Right now, all 1 turn units are considered equal. But in the game, getting a city with a 1 turn unit that has a high cost of purchase (Lt Calv, Pike, Elf, Dwarf) is a HUGE benefit compared to getting a lesser one. So it would be much better if the random map code changed to force a value range in cities of say 500-800 gold for average production instead of the 1-3 unit rule it's using. Then if it selected say 500 gold for a city, it could assign a Pikeman (500 gold) or other units totaling roughly 500 gold (say Hv Inf - 200, Lt Inf - 100, Bat - 100). If it selected 800 gold it could assign just a Minotaur (800) or other units totaling 800 (Giant - 600, Hv Infantry - 200) That way the production values would be bit more even as sometimes I find a single Scout in an average city while other times I find a Minotaur, Dwarf and Lt Infantry in an average city.

As for your suggestions:

Orc - I like the Critical Strike chance since even 1 Orc can kill a Dragon on its own. Groups of these units have even more value esp placed with Ghosts. A pillaging bonus makes no sense unless it's cumulative (ie each Orc in the stack adds 5% more to the gold) because it means multiple Orcs are pointless. A Banding bonus is a BAD idea on a 1 turn unit since even a +2 bonus makes these guys 4 strength, 15 move units which is better than Pikemen/Dwarves. Also why do you want to reduce the Swamp Bonus on a 2 strength unit especially since the bonus comes into play very infrequently?
Elf - This unit needs to get cheaper by 50-75 gold.
Light Calv - This unit needs to get cheaper. If it does go to +1 in the open it should be a 200 gold unit.
Pikemen - Reduce Open bonus to +1 and increase moves to 9 (1 extra move on road or 1 extra in open every other turn) then reduce cost to 400.
Dwarf - Reduce to +1 in the hills and cost to 350.

KGB

[Pillager]

KGB,

I don't think I'm as informed as you. I haven't heard of any changes in beta 4 that would alter the basic value of units. What specific changes are you referring to?

I disagree that no one buys dwarves/pikemen. I buy dwarves...fairly infrequently..but i do buy them. Usually in hilly terrain near a port. Pikemen, I don't generally buy, but i see a lot of them used, so I suspect some players might...6 strength in desert/open for a 1 turn unit can be pretty impressive.

I agree that prices need to be tweaked. I was hoping for some input from other players on unit pricing, so I intentionally left that bit out.

I disagree that light cav should be reduced to 200. If heavy inf lose their terrain bonus, then light cav are an only slightly weaker (equal strength in open/desert) and much faster unit. I would buy light cav if they were priced at 250 gold.

I just don't like critical strike for the orc...I suppose it could indicate poisoned weapons, but it doesn't seem quite the right fit..I suspect an orc would flee in terror from a dragon. Maybe the orc could have a starting strength of 1, banding +3 and 14 movement. This would work for cowardly creatures that like to attack as a horde... might be too strong though. The only reason the orc's swamp bonus is not overpowered is because mapmakers don't seem to favor huge swamps...but yeah, that's just a quibble really.

[zorro]

Need a hill express? Ride a dwarf!

[LPhillips]

Zorro, that's supposed to be fixed in Beta4. At least, it's possible for the creators to alter which units can share their movement bonuses in that version.

Light Cavalry at 250 seems appropriate. Further nerfs are not necessary. I still buy them at 300 occasionally. Pikemen should be str3 +2 in Open in my opinion. Heavy Infantry shouldn't have any bonus for Open or anywhere else; it's just gravy for a 200-cost unit. Dwarfs will be just fine once they don't provide movement cost 1 to other units. Light infantry are what they're supposed to be. Orcs are relatively useless, but they have their moments to shine. Elves are too **** expensive. Sure, they're strength 5 vs fliers, but that doesn't make them a 375 gold unit. Maybe 300, because most of the time they're basically Light Infantry or slow Light Cavalry.

[KGB]

Pillager,

I have no special knowledge beyond what's written in the development blogs or mentioned in threads by Piranha/SnotlinG as being in for Beta4.

I think the following things will alter the basic value of units. By alter I mean how they are currently viewed/used etc.

1) Map size is no longer fixed at 100x150. You can have 50x50 all the way to 150x150. How this affects the game is hard to say because it depends on how many maps get made at the various sizes. But if for example we seen lots of 150x150 epic maps then I *believe* this favors all units with larger movement because obviously there is more map to cover and thus Dwarves/Pikemen suffer while Lt Cavalry/Bats benefit. If instead we see lots of 50x50 for 1-1 games then slow moving units stand to benefit. I suspect we'll see lots of 50x50 and 150x150 and almost nothing else which means you'll use one kind of unit in one game and another in another.

2) New units like the Eagle. This unit alone may mean Bats become extinct due to being hunted relentlessly. The Eagle itself at 2 turns may become the new 'bat' of Beta4 since it can fly a hero, bless to 3 strength and be 4 or 5 strength with paired with a Pegasus and/or Hero.

3) New Rules such as heroes can no longer fly on bats. This may fundamentally alter how people pick initial heroes and production. For example in 99% of my games I by bats only in my capitol to fly my initial hero around and save all my money for a 2nd hero on turn 2 or 3. Now that won't be possible so I'll definitely be buying something else, whether that's an Eagle or a 1 turn unit remains to be seen.

4) New skills. Especially the pillage skill if it gives decent extra gold (10-20%) may be viable. Other skills may allow heroes to generate +X gold per city putting more money in the game.

5) Sites. This includes Towers and the new gold site. It may be there is a rush to grab those sites since they are unguarded unless the map maker puts armies there. So again, bats/fast moving units may be used to race around and claim/raze these and therefore make fast moving units more valuable. As far as towers go, they give the underlying terrain bonus rather than a city bonus so we may see lots of towers in hard terrain giving extra bonus's to 1 turn units that benefit in that terrain.

6) Hero Offers. If the hero offer algorithm is fixed (not heard 100% for sure it is) to use my suggestion of progressively more expensive heroes and forced longer times between hero offers then players may not simply plunder and wait for hero + allies. Thus money will get spent on something else. That *may* be production, may be city wall upgrades, may be building towers etc. Just how money is spent would be fundamentally altered by this change since Beta3 is all about hero+ally collecting.

7) Gold. How much will be available compared to Beta3. Right now all ruins are gold only. Beta4 will have items/allies in ruins. But there will be quests and Piranha has said he plans to increase gold income in cities plus new gold sites etc. So how much money on average players have to spend may increase quite a lot allowing more expensive units (Dwarves/Pikes, 2 turners etc) to be purchased. Or there may be a lot less gold so players can only purchase crappy units.

8) Team Games. You'll be allowed to send gold/units to your ally. What effect this will have (maybe if we are teammates, I build 1 turn units, you build 2 turn units and we exchange what we need) is unclear.

9) Terrain Bonus. Despite what LPhillips wrote above, I have yet to see either SnotlinG/Piranha say for sure whether 1 turn units will no longer grant terrain bonus's to the stack. If that no longer happens it definitely makes several 1 turn units a lot less valuable.

Now you might not think many of these apply and yet if you look at Beta2 to Beta3 some subtle and some not so subtle changes ended up dramatically affecting how units were used/bought.


Now back to the 1 turn units.

When I say no one, I put it with a **. Meaning not 100% no, but rather 95+% no. I think I've bought Dwarves in 3 of 30 games in Beta3 so maybe in 4-5 out of 500 cities I've owned. Always just for the reason you say, I need to travel on the hills. Often I just buy a Giant instead for a bit more gold but lots more move and use with a Hero. I've never bought Pikes. Thus to me those units are already useless. Making them weaker makes them even more useless as at least now I can vector them for city defense at 4 strength. Hence I think they stay at 4 strength and go to +1 terrain bonus (hills/open) and drop in cost by 100 gold (300/400). Don't forget, these 2 units also have 2 upkeep where all other 1 turn units have only 1 so over time you can only have half as many due to upkeep costs (something I wish was easily available in a table or on the buy production screen so you could factor that into your decisions). I love when my opponents buy/use these 2 units as it means they take forever to move around the map so I have lots of time to prepare.

250 for Lt Calv is still a bit much. I just think paying 50 more gold for 8 extra moves is a lot given you can't be sure you get the open bonus while the Hv Infantry is always 3 strength. To me 8 moves and occasional 3 strength = always 3 strength. How about 225?

I agree Orcs are cowards. I also agree with them using poison or striking in the back in the night like an assassin (coward). Plus the Wolfrider (which is an Orc on a Wolf) has Critical Strike too so from a perspective of Orcs having Critical Strike it fits in the way Gnolls in DLR all had assassin. You can't have banding reach 4 strength on any 1 turn units or that's all that will get made with 15 moves as those would be extremely powerful/useful. So at best you could have 1 strength, +2 banding making them 3 strength, 15 move units (slightly better than Hv Infantry so then they need to cost at least the same as Hv Infantry).

KGB

[zorro]

Scout 1
Light Infantry 1
Crow 2
Orc 2
Heavy Infantry 2
Light Cavalry 3
Elf 2
Dwarf 2
Pikeman 2

this is the one turner upkeep as the game states it

[SnotlinG]

To verify, currently only changes to the scouts movespecials has been planned for beta4 (i.e. lowered cost for Ice and Desert). We however have the ability to make more detailed changes now than before if we think it makes sense.

Is it the general meaning that the Dwarf move-cost of 1 in hills is too good to be groupable?
I am myself quite fond of it

One idea would be that dwarfs move at cost 1 in hills, but units grouped with them would pay 2 in hills (and not 1)

[KGB]

SnotlinG,

The thought was to strip all stack terrain move bonus's from the 1 turn units (Orc, Elf, Dwarf) other than the scout (and maybe with the scouts new ability to see in stacks he doesn't need it either). The units would still get their individual bonus in their terrain (so Dwarf uses 1 move in hills, elf 2 in woods etc) but the stack would not get that ability.

The idea would be then that there is more reason to build/keep 2+ turn units like the WolfRider, Giant, Unicorn, Elemental, Giant Scorpion etc because they would now be the only way to get stack move bonus's (unless items/heroes can acquire it).

KGB

[Pillager]

Snotling,

The dwarf's 1 move is very handy, if they didn't have it, I doubt I would build ever build dwarves. I would actually rather see the dwarf's strength or terrain bonus reduced. I like strength 3, +1 in city, +2 in hills...it is thematic, but a bit complex....strength 4, +1 in hills would be simpler.

KGB,

I build dwarves once or twice in almost every game..admittedly not on maps like bullrun, but on hilly or watery maps they are really quite handy. 350 seems like a good price.

moving onto light cav...I feel that +8 movement is generally more valuable than +1 strength, add to that a +1 in open, and easier blessing (due to speed). Looking at that overall package 225 seems like a bargain. I would certainly be building more of these. If the upkeep for light cav is indeed 3, then it should be reduced.

All,

Elves shouldn't be more than 300...even that seems a little high if light cav are 225.

Not sure what the solution to pikemen is. In some situations they are nearly useless, in others they are quite overpowered. This doesn't make them a balanced unit IMO. Making them strength 3, +2 in open..and not giving a speed increase, would make them too weak (although it would work well thematically). I suppose I like KGB's suggestion of reducing the open bonus by one and increasing speed by one. I think they need to be rounded out a bit...they are just a little too extreme.