Colourful Snowflake [1.0] is submitted for review.

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Re: Colourful Snowflake [1.0] is submitted for review.

Postby Negern » Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:22 am

I like the change done to the defenders. Didn't even conquer any of those cities when I played the map. It wasn't worth it. The units put up for taking them were of more use on other places on the map. As for a barb soloing them in the new version, I see no problem. Choosing the barb is risky. Can die on the front early or, if the player is careful with barb on top, slow down expansion since no bonus is given to the units = they die and have to be replaced more often. Might be wrong, but it feels like he would be a bad choice. I would go for DK any day. His slow moment is no problem here.

Only thing that worries me are the giants. 4 of them in native terrain + tower with 10 wall. 45 str. That's stronger than an attacking elemental. And the best thing is, no one sees them when they are hidden in the towers. Some poor guy who never played the map before might just run in thinking, "oh, nice, I'll get a str-bless" :lol: :cry:
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Re: Colourful Snowflake [1.0] is submitted for review.

Postby KGB » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:13 pm

Negern,

It was *always* worth it to conquer those cities for the reasons I mentioned (good production, high income, hero XP). It was just harder to do so and required actual planning. Now it's obviously very easy to do it so the careful planning part has been lost.

I think you are underestimating the power of the Barb in early expansion. He *speeds* up expansion, not slows it down. For example I'm playing your Sci-Fi map (2nd time actually). It's turn 9 and I've conquered the entire set of 8 middle cities with a Barb (just as I did last game). The outer 4 can be easily handled by a L4 Barb on his own and the inner 4 require L5 (which he gets by taking the outer 4) with the 4th hit, the bless to 70 str and either a Ram / Crusader / Yeti. My opponents are just reaching the middle in force now and the game is over. I've pillaged most of them for gold (using it to buy production in my home cities which are better defended), bought Hv Infantry to defend and will self-raze what I can't keep. Meanwhile my Barb with his Flight skill will now use the mountain ranges to raze enemy cities. He's truly a 1 man wrecking crew.

That's why I liked the Dragon defender because the Barb could not just walk from island to island and capture those cities on his own so this was one of the very few maps I didn't automatically take a Barb as my 1st hero. He requires other units or you need to experiment with Assassin/Wolfrider/Orc/Elf combos to take those cities.

KGB
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Re: Colourful Snowflake [1.0] is submitted for review.

Postby Negern » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:16 pm

KGB wrote:Negern,

It was *always* worth it to conquer those cities for the reasons I mentioned (good production, high income, hero XP). It was just harder to do so and required actual planning. Now it's obviously very easy to do it so the careful planning part has been lost.

I think you are underestimating the power of the Barb in early expansion. He *speeds* up expansion, not slows it down. For example I'm playing your Sci-Fi map (2nd time actually). It's turn 9 and I've conquered the entire set of 8 middle cities with a Barb (just as I did last game). The outer 4 can be easily handled by a L4 Barb on his own and the inner 4 require L5 (which he gets by taking the outer 4) with the 4th hit, the bless to 70 str and either a Ram / Crusader / Yeti. My opponents are just reaching the middle in force now and the game is over. I've pillaged most of them for gold (using it to buy production in my home cities which are better defended), bought Hv Infantry to defend and will self-raze what I can't keep. Meanwhile my Barb with his Flight skill will now use the mountain ranges to raze enemy cities. He's truly a 1 man wrecking crew.

That's why I liked the Dragon defender because the Barb could not just walk from island to island and capture those cities on his own so this was one of the very few maps I didn't automatically take a Barb as my 1st hero. He requires other units or you need to experiment with Assassin/Wolfrider/Orc/Elf combos to take those cities.

KGB

Yes yes, I agree about the barb, I hate meeting one with no good ambush units around. But what I said is that it is risky to choose him. When I choose him, sometimes he dies early, and when I try to protect him until he reaches lvl 2, overall initial expansion gets slowed down. But it's true, that if he comes to a high level, he's big trouble. But I still think the dragon cities were too strong. If it is like you said, that a lvl3 assa with full stack of ambush units and elves didn't get even 90%, then defenses were too strong. One could storm another players home island with a stack like that. And if that player tried to take over on of the dragon cities, he's likely to have very poor defenses and loose the entire island! ;)
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Re: Colourful Snowflake [1.0] is submitted for review.

Postby KGB » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:29 pm

Negern,

I said it was a L2 Assassin. A L3 Assassin will be over 90%. Many of those cities have Ghost/Pegasi/Gryphons in them which makes the L2 Assassin, 2 Wolfrider, 5 Elf combo well over 90% simply because of the Elves vs fliers. If the Dragon seems to much then it at least change it for a Pegasi for the +5 morale bonus. The Elephant is just a total waste there doing nothing but providing free XP for heroes.

If you ever landed such a stack (L2 Assassin, 2 Wolfriders, 5 Elves/Orcs) on another players island it would be killed easily. That stack is useful for taking neutrals with 2 super defenders but would be very lucky to take 1 city with just 4 Hv Inf in it.

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Re: Colourful Snowflake [1.0] is submitted for review.

Postby smursh » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:15 am

I agree that a pegasus is a better compromise. In the game I played the outer ring of 6 island cities never got taken until well after the game was decided. Players went initially for the central island cities, and the 6 middle island cities. At that point the outer cities were too far out of the way to spare any major heroes/forces. Having pegasus in these cities still makes them tough, but you also would be able to use a stack led by a lv-3 paladin or DN for example rather than just being able to use an assassin led stack to take down these cities. It makes the game more interesting if players can have success with different strategies. A map where only 1 strategy will work would quickly become boring.
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Re: Colourful Snowflake [1.0] is submitted for review.

Postby Experix » Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:18 am

KGB,

so your main concern about elephants is the barbarian? I didn't see much difference between elephant and paegasus; when using elves and wizards the second possibility should be even easier...
I think L3 barbarian still would have some 65%, depending on production. Do you think it is worth of it?
You mentioned high income. Those cities had the income set at 10 gold. Now I changed the outer six to 30. If you found some great income there, it was a mistake.

I looked at the stats of the game you played on this map. What surprised me, was the number of searched ruins. 1 for Omen and 0 for you. Are these numbers correct? If they are, what was the reason? I thought shipwrecks were worth it...
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Re: Colourful Snowflake [1.0] is submitted for review.

Postby KGB » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:56 am

Experix,

My main concern with the Elephant is just that he's just a waste. I don't mind extra defenders but you may as well just put 1 Hv Inf in there instead. Less experience and slightly weaker but serves the same purpose. I *love* the Barbarian but I think he gets over used (at least in games I play both individual and team) so if those islands push other heroes into play so much the better because there are plenty of Barbarian maps. As Smursh noted the Dragon meant only the Assassin could reasonably take those cities but with a Pegasi it brings all the heroes into play for taking the islands.

In the games I played I don't recall the exact income. I seem to recall one set of 6 being 10 and the other being 30. I simply collected the islands because it was relatively easy for my Assassin and it got even easier once he reached L3 and beyond.

Those are accurate ruin search numbers for our 2nd game. I had 1 Barbarian hero and 2 Assassin heroes. Neither of which are good ruin searchers so I never searched any ruins (I use all my level up points on Learning). There is really only 1 ruin on the home island and once you leave that's pretty much it since the AI searches the ruins on it's own islands and it searches the Shipwrecks too when it can. Since I was taking all those nice island cities with good production I didn't need the gold from ruins. In our 1st game on that map I got lucky with a flying ally offer early and so took a Paladin and searched all the L1 ruins on the islands that you added ports to so in that game I probably searched 7-8 ruins with the Paladin.

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