The Paladin

[kenc80]

So I agree that the Paladin needed to be toned down a bit in 9 but whenever I play him he limits out pretty quickly. Limiting him to +10 Leadership really takes away opportunities to improve him late in games. With the Assassin you can basically increase the Group Ambush, personal ambush AND the chaos in city. With the pally its really just the +10 and once you get that, he's kind of maxed out really quickly.

I dunno. I'm pretty much always going DK & Assassin now unless I have need of a specific hero counter. And to be honest, a little part of me dies inside when I get the Assassin, he is so violent and brutal. His effect on stack performance is just so dramatic to me. Its always stunning to me to play with a high, or even medium level assassin.

I guess it just seems like the Paladin got nerfed a bit too much. I have a hunch Igor, KGB et all aren't playing a whole lot of Paladins these days.

I know these unit tweak conversations are essentially endless but equally fascinating to me. I enjoy them. probably too much.

Ok since I'm here, this is the data I think it would be really fun to mine: If you could get a some data that shows hero selection by players who have played, lets say, >15 games. I know some hero selection is map dependent but I think we probably have enough data to be statistically sound if we draw on all games played in the new beta.

rambling over -


Ken

[Moonknight]

you're such a data slut...

[KGB]

KenC80,

I don't remember the last time I took a Paladin in any game. He has ZERO use now because:

1) Ranger is a much better ruin searcher (100% on L1) and even though she maxes at 18, with 2-4 scouts or a Wizard she's good for all L2 ruins too. Even the HL is a better option if you need ruins searched.
2) With L3+ heroes appearing in the mid/late game you are FAR better off taking a DK since he can go all the way to +18 Chaos if you need a hero who has bonus's when attacking/defending. The +1 difference between the Chaos/Leadership is negligible at L3+ and they both have identical starting movement. Worst of all is his bonus doesn't stack with the Valkrie on attacks so a DK is a better partner for her his since his Chaos stacks on attacks.
3) The specialty heroes like HL/Ranger not only reach REALLY high values in their terrain, they also start with better UL, better movement and have group move skills which really adds up over time.
4) The Barbarian is a much better initial expansion hero since he can go solo.
5) The Assassin eats him alive as you noted.

So what's left for the Paladin to do? The answer is nothing.

KGB

[Chazar]

What was the reason behind the Paladin's recent nerfing in v0.9 anyway?

[magian]

I believe the reasoning behind the nerf was that the paladin was the most commonly used hero.

I suspect much of the reason for his popularity was his overall utility, and not indicative of a power imbalance. He could do everything reasonable well, and didn't have any major drawbacks (other than a kryptonite-like vulnerability to archons). I mostly preferred him to the dreadknight because of the DK's terrible movement rate. Does the DK really need to be so slow? What is wrong with his legs anyway?

[smursh]

The main advantage the pala. Because you can stack other units like ghost or wizards to level up even barbarians and valkyries this becomes a useless skill. Unless you create a super ruin(say 45 sides, stronger/more undead), or limit the number of units that stack UL onto the hero to one I just don't see much value to the higher UL. I always take a DN or assassin in preference to the paladin. Other heroes I use when the situation dictates their specialty is needed/useful.

[KGB]

I've been thinking about the poor Paladin a bit lately and what can be done to make him semi-useful in his current limited state.

One idea that crossed my mind is to change his personal stats to the following:
1) +6 strength for 5 points (max 5)
2) +1 hits for 15 points (max 1)

This will allow the Paladin to reach +10 Leadership at L5. Then at L9 he will have added +30 strength (25 points) and +1 hits (15) points giving him personal stats of 55/3. With his +10 Leadership he'll be 65/3 in combat. Not quite as good as a L9 Barb (65/5 with move 18) but he will be powerful enough that he could kill that Barb especially if he has a few decent units with him getting the +10 stack bonus.

This would at least get me to consider taking a Paladin again when the higher level hero offers start coming.

KGB

[magian]

KGB's suggestion seems pretty reasonable to me. The paladin isn't a great stack leader anymore. He is more of a 'jack-of-all-trades' (master of none) hero right now. Letting him be a mediocre combatant would fit with this new job description. It would also allow him to get some more use out of those +wounds and +str items (like gabriel's heart and ragnarok) he may find in ruins.

[tabanli]

I think we should give Paladin a chance. He works really well with Crusader and I see that a lot of people are using him. I often get him later in the game as a side kick to my level 3 Dread Knight/Assassin or to my Barbarian. Chaos leadership adds up real nice.

I don't think heroes maxing out is a big problem and I think they should max out. 45 Strength with 10 leadership is already 55 strength. I max out at level 10 much less with Paladin be cause I rarely take him as first hero and I never get intelligence as an ability. For all other heroes, I always boost intelligence as some point so they max out more often. However in most of the games where I max out, I am already winning. And if you have a level 12 hero and you lost most of the map, well getting an extra strength and hit to your Paladin is not going to help you much.

In any case, I often take or at least consider all 7 heroes. It's all about where in the map comes the offer and what is the situation with the enemy. Each has its own use, advantages comes with disadvantages and that's where you try to use your judgement, your skill and experience. And the super barbarian, well everybody has one. At least a level 3 58 strength in a stack with a good amount of leadership/chaos/morale/warding or ambush.

[magian]

Tablani,

The fact that you never take the paladin as a first hero, and that you only use him as a sidekick to boost another hero should tell you something about his current state. No hero should be shunted into a sidekick role.

Yes, he can work well with crusaders, but the only reason to make a stack like that is if your opponent has gone the ambush route, and the ranger is a far better counter for ambush anyway.

I don't think any hero should max out as early as the paladin does. Allowing the paladin to gain extra strength and another hit gives him another direction to take. You may end up taking these upgrades first in some situations. The paladin is the best solo ruin searcher out there, it may be handy to give him some personal combat presence so he can wander off to ruin search without needing to worry about being picked off by an eagle.