Valkyrie vs Assasin

[magian]

In a recent game, my level 4 valkyrie's stack (consisting of siege engine, wizards and cav) came upon an enemy city garrisoned by an high level assassin, and containing a fairly large number of units (10-12). I immediately knew my valkyrie was dead. Attacking the city was death (because of the large number of ambush units making my superior strength irrelevant), and retreating to my own city was death (my valkyrie would receive no bonus in defense). I ended up retreating and being killed.

The valkyrie already has glaring weaknesses (no defensive bonus, vulnerable to archons) does she also need the added humiliation of being totally outclassed by the assassin?

[KGB]

Yes

As another Warlord is fond of telling me when one of my good Barbarians falls to some Ambush unit, "He knew what he signed up for".

KGB

P.S. Might I recommend scouting ahead next time with one of those Wizards before rushing up to an enemy cities walls.

[magian]

I didn't actually rush up to the enemy walls, I was trying to simplify the scenario a bit to make it easier for folks to grasp. I would have bypassed the city if I could, but doing so would just have left my stack even more vulnerable.

I think there is a larger issue here. Assassins are ridiculous, the designers of warlords 3 refrained from adding group assassination bonuses (beyond a few piddly ones from spells), and I am starting to see the wisdom of that choice.

[Chazar]

Both heroes have severe drawbacks: the valkyrie is vulnerable during defense, but the assassin is weak during offense, since he can only attack once and is vulnerable thereafter:

Ambush only works once and unless the assassin has a high bonus from items or powrful units already, then he will loose many units, leaving him vulnerable too unless he can fill up his ranks.

Of course, in your example this does not work, since the assassin was defending a city. However, given your scouting, you could have kept your valkyrie outside the assassins range and used a different route around the city or just wait, since if the assassin moves out in the open, the valkyrie could catch him. So they both neutralize each other. Fine.

The only problem remaining is the 4x8 units inside a city, which is simply too much. To solve this, I would suggest to allow two-pronged attacks: if I attack a city, and have at another (allied) stack directly adjacent to the city, then I can select one of those adjacent stacks and attack with both stacks at once (i.e. 2x8 = 16 max versus 32 max defenders). I strongly believe that this would solve a lot of problems, the assassin being one of them.

[magian]

Hmmmm...

'Finding another route' was not an option in my situation, and it won't be an option in many situations.

The biggest problem with cities holding 4 stacks is caused by the group ambush ability. Now we apparently need a bunch of new rules to correct the problem? I can see a much simpler solution.

[KGB]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The problem is cities holding 4 stacks. It's not group ambush.

1 Dragon can provide +10 morale for 32 units in the same manner that 1 Assassin provides Group Ambush to 32 units. The real issue is the defender can cover all bonus's (Morale/Fear/Leadership/Chaos/Grp Ambush, Negate (terrain, leadership/chaos, morale/fear) very easily with 32 units and have plenty of spare units (Hv Inf) for cannon fodder up front. The Attacker meanwhile has only 8 units and if they must counter 2 or 3 bonus's (walls plus 2 of the others and potentially terrain if spiders/minos/gryphons involved) that literally takes up half the stack leaving almost no units to do actual fighting.

Beyond that there is the problem that many maps (especially small ones) provide NO alternate routes around. This is a map problem though, not a game problem since many maps don't have this issue.

Chazar's 2-pronged attack helps but it complicates the game more by forcing selections of extra stacks when attacking cities. It may also make it too easy for attackers since most cities don't have 32 men and now the attacker may end up in a 16v8 scenario against a city where outside he could only do an 8v8 followed by another 8v8. I don't think many players want to be victims of 16v8 because they are in a city.

One thing that could help is new powers borrowed from DLR like poison/disease. Where the poison/disease lasts for a couple of turns (rather than forever) weakening all defenders (maybe poison halves all skills, disease reduces strength by 1/3) allowing multiple attack stacks a chance to wear down the weakened defenders.

KGB

[magian]

Sure, the big cities have other issues, but stack ambush is by far the worst problem. Let's make strength irrelevant and give overwhelming numerical superiority to the defender! Not the best plan IMO.

I don't much like Chazar's solution very much though. Why can't we have some different city sizes? Capitals and big cities could still be size 4 monsters, but size 1 and 2 cities would add some nice variety and simultaneously deal with a number of balance issues.

[KGB]

Why can't we have some different city sizes? Capitals and big cities could still be size 4 monsters, but size 1 and 2 cities would add some nice variety and simultaneously deal with a number of balance issues.

I've thought about this idea too. The way I'd like to see it done is based on city wall level rather than be fixed by the map maker.

0-2: Max 1 stack
3-5: Max 2 stacks
6-7: Max 3 stacks
8: Max 4 stacks

The cities would graphically stay the same (occupy 2x2 grid) but the area inside would have and X on it (or shrink / be covered in some manner) to indicate how many spots could accommodate stacks.

KGB

[magian]

Well, there might be some weirdness involved in entering and exiting a city with X'd out sections. Also, you could just sink some money into that city at the choke point, and were back to the same issue.

I think I would prefer cities that are set a specific size. Maybe make upgrading walls cheaper at little cities too.

Really, I just want a size 1 city (or town). I know we have towers and villages, but they can't produce troops. I'm not sure if you've heard, but troops are kinda a big deal in warbarons.

[smursh]

The valkyrie is a specialized hero and needs to be used carefully. Players who scout in advance do best. It is critical that you don't open yourself to a counter attack. The problem here is arriving at the city with all your movement used up. Send 1 fast unit ahead to scout instead of the whole stack. When you see the assassin, retreat. Wait till he leaves the castle before attacking him. Timing is everything for the valkyrie.