Suggestions for making the map editor better!

[Negern]

Negern,I like how they are now where I can manually specify an exact gold total regardless of defender. I typically place better gold sites further from cities so there is an incentive to go there.

If this new way of 'poor, normal, rich' was added but not tied to defender then I'd be OK with that. You can always place extra guards on your 'rich' sites.

You like how it is, to manually have to set -every- site on the map to 0-50 gold if you don't want random? Is that better than having a standard of say 16 on open terrains but still the option to change it to 0-50 and random? Then you see a 16-income one by the side of the road and think" Nah, I don't need to change that", while you could change one in a hard to reach place.

I still disagree. A gold sack in plain site is FAR less likely to be seen than a ruin. Everyone knows what ruins are. Adding more stuff to the map only complicates the map more than it already is. Besides an actual bag of gold just lying there would have LONG ago been picked up by the local peasants.

If you don't want a ruin I suggest a scenario map. There you can place gold on the ground via the trigger mechanism. Either give it away for free (just stand on the trigger which is equivalent of picking up a bag lying around) or have the player do something else to earn it (conquer a city/rebuild/defeat a guardian etc). That's exactly what triggers are for.

KGB

I don't believe the warbarons players are tards. They will not have problems understanding what function a bag of gold has. It's not complex or hard to understand to place some money on the ground. It could look just like the brown sacks with artifacts in them, to minimize confusion. Perhaps also with a remark: "Only heroes can pick this up".

Pros:

The maker can chose where to put it, both in far of places (giving + to those who scout) and near the roads (speeding up the game a little).

Is in plain view, as long as it's spotted, while gold in ruins can only be seen by studying that specific ruins info screen and it can be done by any player, anywhere on the map, even when it's emptied (only if the player hasn't spotted the emptied ruin).

Can be put in all kinds of terrain, while gold in ruins is restricted to city terrain. Putting 200 in marshes with a wolfrider and some orcs as guards is not possible atm. Or just 56 gold on a nearby mountain, guarded by a crow. Everyone knows they love shiny things.

More freedom for map makers, making maps a little interactive. Can be seen as small quests for those who wish so. "Go into the forest and kill of the troublesome elves". Can also be seen as aesthetical way to make maps more "alive". A razed city not far from a group of giants, guarding the loot, 370 gold. It's not possible with a ruin. + that ruin could ruin the map makers intentions, acting as +wall/+terrain-place for invaders, gryphons would be able to get to "their hood", instead of being easy targets in the hills.

Could give heroes that started far from the fronts in late game something to do. Could even give any hero more to do.

Cons (according to KGB):

Hard for players to keep track of, makes the maps more complicated.

Far less likely to be seen than a ruin.

Local peasants would have picked the gold up long ago.

There are triggers on scenario maps, that's almost the same thing. (Question: but triggers, any kind of unit can use them, correct? Only heroes would be able to pick up the gold. Makes no sense, sure, but who cares, many good things with this game doesn't make sense)

You can add more cons if you wish so.

[KGB]

Negern,

You like how it is, to manually have to set -every- site on the map to 0-50 gold if you don't want random? Is that better than having a standard of say 16 on open terrains but still the option to change it to 0-50 and random? Then you see a 16-income one by the side of the road and think" Nah, I don't need to change that", while you could change one in a hard to reach place.

Absolutely. I am not obsessive enough that I think every gold site on open territory must have 16 income by default. I like a the randomness in the sites just like there is randomness in the city incomes and units. You can manually control it if needed just like you can with cities.

I *would* be fine if there were say 4 settings added (poor, average, rich, very rich) that gave ranges. Poor being 8-15, average being 16-24, rich being 25-35 and very rich being 35+ with the default for all sites being poor (I don't want sites by default to be better than cities). But the income should not change the defender of the site or be based on that defender in any way.

Bags of Gold:

Additional Cons (based on your list):

1) Only heroes can pick them up? WTF? Any unit should be able to pick up gold as it is not an artifact. If crows can steal gold to place on a mountain your crows could get that gold. It would be a HUGE mistake to make it heroes only as that's the dumbest part of this idea. Heroes should be doing heroic things, not trying to get rich by chasing bags of gold.
2) It's not fun. There is nothing fun about needing to race other players to bags of money sitting on a map regardless of whether they are guarded by units or not. It's simply tedious and has nothing to do with what Warbarons is about (conquering the world). A few versions ago SnotlinG/Piranha tried complex resource gathering to build special units but found it wasn't fun at all. This would be the same. In fact on many maps now there are SO many gold sites it's tedious to get them but you have to in order to deny them to the enemy.
3) Placing 200 gold on the map guarded by Wolfriders/Orcs is basically a ruin only with Wolfrider/Orc guards instead of undead. We are back to replicating features the game *already has*. Only you want to use guards other than the undead ruin guards.
4) There is no scouting/spotting benefit as you report under pro. It's *always* there on the map. So it's one more thing for players to view in the editor to know where the gold sits so they can race there to get it.
5) A real actual quest system (which the game definitely needs) would make the map come alive far more than just handing out bags of gold on the ground in fixed locations (which is again just a trigger) that are potentially guarded.
6) It requires non-zero effort from Piranha/SnotlinG to implement and test and document (and retest to make sure it never breaks in the future). If the game were finished and there was little else to do it might make sense to attempt something like this just to test it. But there are far more important new features (magic, quest system, hero rework, new units, new items, new skills etc ) + bugs to do. I personally wouldn't want to waste time on this feature that may never get used and isn't required to play the game.

I write software for a living. When I propose some new feature or idea the first thing my boss says to me is 'what am I getting from this'. As in what improvement or benefit to the customer and how is is helping sales.

My boss would look at this compared to what already exists and tell me there is really nothing new or interesting enough in this proposal to make it worth while doing. All of it can already be done in other ways (other than restricting gold pickup to heroes which is totally dumb).

KGB

[Negern]

Absolutely. I am not obsessive enough that I think every gold site on open territory must have 16 income by default. I like a the randomness in the sites just like there is randomness in the city incomes and units. You can manually control it if needed just like you can with cities.

I *would* be fine if there were say 4 settings added (poor, average, rich, very rich) that gave ranges. Poor being 8-15, average being 16-24, rich being 25-35 and very rich being 35+ with the default for all sites being poor (I don't want sites by default to be better than cities). But the income should not change the defender of the site or be based on that defender in any way.

Well then, clearly we agree on one thing, that default set to "random" from 0-50 is no good. Setting the default for poor on all income buildings, I do not agree with. A hard to reach, well defended building (e.g. water) should not have the same low default as a open area income building with poor defense.
When I'm talking about + for guardian strength, I'm talking about default guardian with terrain bonus (nothing more), not extra guardians added later. So a gold mine would have a few gold more than the sawmill, which would have the same gold as the swamp etc etc. Add a random +/- of up to lets say 4 gold to the default for different buildings, and every building will have 9 default settings, varying in income depending on how hard they are to take over.

Cons for bags of gold:

1) Only heroes can pick them up? WTF?

Yes, only heroes can pick up artifacts too. Is it odd that a crow can't pick up 300 coins, you think? Why don't you think it's odd it can't pick up a small little ring and carry it to a hero? It's all about being used to it or not. Many things with this game is odd, but it's just not to think of it. It's a game, not an alternate reality with laws that always makes sense. If it was possible for crows to carry rings and Snotling and Piranha were about to change that, I bet you would react like "Crows can't pick up rings anymore? WTF?"

Taking bags of gold would not be the main thing about games if this function was implemented. Just as taking artifacts placed on map is not the main thing now. You're making it into a drama, like it will change the fate of warbarons for ever if some maps had sacks of gold on the map.

2) It's not fun.

I bet it would be fun.

3) Placing 200 gold on the map guarded by Wolfriders/Orcs is basically a ruin only with Wolfrider/Orc guards instead of undead. We are back to replicating features the game *already has*. Only you want to use guards other than the undead ruin guards.

I quote my last post "[A] ruin could ruin the map makers intentions, acting as +wall/+terrain-place for invaders, gryphons would be able to get to "their hood", instead of being easy targets in the hills.

Could give heroes that started far from the fronts in late game something to do. Could even give any hero more to do."

&

"Is in plain view, as long as it's spotted, while gold in ruins can only be seen by studying that specific ruins info screen and it can be done by any player, anywhere on the map, even when it's emptied (only if the player hasn't spotted the emptied ruin)."

I repeat: don't forget about terrain, visibility, choices of guards, aesthetics, xp.

4) There is no scouting/spotting benefit as you report under pro. It's *always* there on the map. So it's one more thing for players to view in the editor to know where the gold sits so they can race there to get it.

Again: you're making it more dramatic than it is. Some sacks of gold with a few hundred each, it's not like people would hard study maps "to know where the gold sits so they can race there to get it". Ofc it'd favor those who scout. Then there might be some people who study maps in detail before playing them, consulting the blue prints before making a move, but I believe that they are few and don't really care if they see where the gold is before "casual" players do (in game, that is).

5) A real actual quest system (which the game definitely needs) would make the map come alive far more than just handing out bags of gold on the ground in fixed locations (which is again just a trigger) that are potentially guarded.

I agree. But a little is better than nothing at all. I can't see how it would harm the game if map makers got this option.

I write software for a living. When I propose some new feature or idea the first thing my boss says to me is 'what am I getting from this'. As in what improvement or benefit to the customer and how is is helping sales.

Sure you do, and I bet you're good at it, but you still don't seem to understand the difference between 200 gold in forest and 200 gold in the lvl1 ruin. But maybe I misinterpret you.
I agree that there are more important things to add. But this couldn't take much time, or could it? Just adding a "place gold on map"-function, doesn't sound like much work is needed. But maybe I know too little of programming.
But don't misunderstand me. I don't say that they should add it or that the amount of work isn't too large. I just give a suggestion, and if they like it, they like it, if they don't like it, they don't.

[KGB]

Negern,

Setting the default for poor on all income buildings, I do not agree with. A hard to reach, well defended building (e.g. water) should not have the same low default as a open area income building with poor defense.

Then as the map maker go in and manually change it for the sites you want. I suggest that placing a site on the map would automatically set the gold income to poor. Use the drop down list and change it in the editor if you want a far away site to give more gold. Surely that's not asking too much. How many sites can this apply to? 10, 20? That's maybe 2-3 minutes of time in the editor when you are putting the finishing touches on your map.

When I'm talking about + for guardian strength, I'm talking about default guardian with terrain bonus (nothing more), not extra guardians added later. So a gold mine would have a few gold more than the sawmill, which would have the same gold as the swamp etc etc. Add a random +/- of up to lets say 4 gold to the default for different buildings, and every building will have 9 default settings, varying in income depending on how hard they are to take over.

That's fine. I can see the ranges being slightly different for different site types.

Yes, only heroes can pick up artifacts too. Is it odd that a crow can't pick up 300 coins, you think? Why don't you think it's odd it can't pick up a small little ring and carry it to a hero? It's all about being used to it or not. Many things with this game is odd, but it's just not to think of it. It's a game, not an alternate reality with laws that always makes sense. If it was possible for crows to carry rings and Snotling and Piranha were about to change that, I bet you would react like "Crows can't pick up rings anymore? WTF?"

Items aren't just rings. They are magic artifacts. One a kind items (which is why there are no duplicate items). They aren't just lying around on the ground to be picked up and would never be casually given to someone else. I had this discussion several months ago with another player who thought you should be able to have regular units just carry items between heroes. I said items are legendary and you never ever read about some hero in a story giving some magic artifact someone to carry around for him. For example Frodo didn't let anyone but himself carry the One Ring. And I would imagine if you found the Ark of the Covenant with all its legendary power you wouldn't just give it to Fed-Ex to be transported.

So yeah, it makes perfect sense only heroes use and carry artifacts. A crow can certain carry a ring, just not a artifact ring. Just as a crow or Giant or Gryphon etc could transport gold and pick up the bags lying on the ground.

2) It's not fun.

I bet it would be fun.

Happy to test that theory in a poll asking how many players want bags of gold on the ground only heroes can take. Many suggestions that have been made by myself and others have been voted down as making things less fun due to making the game more tedious or taking away from the primary focus of the game (building units and conquering cities).

Could give heroes that started far from the fronts in late game something to do. Could even give any hero more to do."

Late game heroes are much much better now that they arrive at high levels. I always have something for my late game heroes to do now where before at L1 they were useless due to no real skills.

I repeat: don't forget about terrain, visibility, choices of guards, aesthetics, xp.

I don't understand. Stuff you place on the map (bag + guards) is fixed. You can simply look in the editor and see a gold total and 1 Wolfrider and 3 Orc guards. No need to scout to see the guards or if the bag is actually there. Unless you are now going to add more complications such as random defenders and randomly whether the bag is or is not there. In which case this suggestion is becoming ever more complicated from your original 'just place gold on the ground'.

Again: you're making it more dramatic than it is. Some sacks of gold with a few hundred each, it's not like people would hard study maps "to know where the gold sits so they can race there to get it". Ofc it'd favor those who scout. Then there might be some people who study maps in detail before playing them, consulting the blue prints before making a move, but I believe that they are few and don't really care if they see where the gold is before "casual" players do (in game, that is).

Virtually *every* player I know religiously looks in the editor. I can tell this from the number of people who post about looking in the editor in the forums (Eg the request to see the limited production before pillaging a city). I always look at every map before I play to refresh my memory of where important things are (set production, set ruins, set gold incomes). So you are totally off base here. It's just one more thing players have to learn about the map and plan the most efficient route to get that gold bag. Especially since a few hundred gold is a huge amount on many low income maps.

I agree. But a little is better than nothing at all. I can't see how it would harm the game if map makers got this option.

Because some time has to be spent making this feature, testing and documenting it. Then when quests arrive it is probably no longer needed so it will then be taken away. If it's left in, then the game becomes even more complex with quests, triggers, bags of gold on the ground, ruins all sort of overlapping each other in features. At some point for simplification a lot of stuff will have to get pulled out other wise the game becomes a giant hodge podge of stuff just thrown together.

Sure you do, and I bet you're good at it, but you still don't seem to understand the difference between 200 gold in forest and 200 gold in the lvl1 ruin. But maybe I misinterpret you.

To me it's just 200 gold. It's only purpose is to get spent on heroes or production or upkeep etc. I don't care whether it comes from a ruin or the forest. So since I already have a gold source in the ruins I don't see the need for another one in the forest.

The other thing your idea does is devalue UL and the heroes who have it. That's because gold bags don't require UL, just a strong stack to defeat the guards (if there are any). I definitely don't want to devalue UL.

KGB

[magian]

I probably shouldn't chime in here, since I don't feel like I have any emotional weight around this 'bag' issue. On one hand I don't see any great harm in having bags of gold lying around the map. But, on the other hand I don't see that it is at all necessary, and would take up snotling and Pirahna's valuable time. On the third hand, I find the numerous references to bags inexplicably hilarious.

On an only vaguely related note... I know that at least 3 players are hoping that a quest system will be implemented at some point. I think that quests would give heroes more interesting and varied tasks than just collecting bags.

Back on topic. Bags! What about fake, exploding bags dropped by assassins? Or the occasional mobile bag that runs away as heroes get close?

[Negern]

I probably shouldn't chime in here, since I don't feel like I have any emotional weight around this 'bag' issue. On one hand I don't see any great harm in having bags of gold lying around the map. But, on the other hand I don't see that it is at all necessary, and would take up snotling and Pirahna's valuable time. On the third hand, I find the numerous references to bags inexplicably hilarious.

On an only vaguely related note... I know that at least 3 players are hoping that a quest system will be implemented at some point. I think that quests would give heroes more interesting and varied tasks than just collecting bags.

Back on topic. Bags! What about fake, exploding bags dropped by assassins? Or the occasional mobile bag that runs away as heroes get close?

lol, yes, it's getting tense. Serious stuff, these money bags. To add another one, to the exploding and mobile bags, I would like to see the "disguise"-bag, where a hero+stack can transform into a bag. Then, when enemy hero arrives to pick it up, they leave the bag and attack.

Agree that quest system would be a whole deal better then these "bags", but worth to ask for at least. Probably not as much programming needed.

[Negern]

..

We have to continue this some other time. Doesn't feel like we get anywhere. May the force be with you.