Ruin Rewards

[tabanli]

Plus there is no 12 or 15 turn limit on getting 5 turn allies with hero offers.
KGB

That is also a problem and I think that's too much too. Is there a restriction on high level heroes early in the game?

Since we are getting to the bottom of allies I would like to discuss two more things. One is the Ally-Gold-Item ratio at level-1-2-3 ruins. I thing the ratio should be in favor of allies as the ruin level increases. It is very hard to get to near 33 UL and If I am risking my level 3 hero at a ruin, I should expect high percentage of a good ally. The reason is not so much that I don't like gold or level 3 items, it is be cause with allies in the ruin, there is no battle so it is risk free.

The second thing is the item lists and their level. Before discussing further, I would like to say that defense leadership items gotta go from ruin rewards. They are such a useless items early in the game and it is one thing that discourage me from L-1 ruins. A hero approximately makes 20 attacking battles versus 1 defensive battle. Most of his defensive battles are getting checked out by a scout. On the other hand, his defensive battles against a superior hero could be critical an item would make a difference, but not as much as getting learning increased or getting speed early in the game. For me L-1 item Ishmaels relic (+2 leadership) is a better item than L-2 items Balins Protector (+6 defensive leadership) or Narnya (+10 anti-air). Be cause +2 leadership is useful everytime but others two are useful much less. For the same reason Patriarch is almost a level 3 item.

Finally let's make an item contest just like a map contest.

[KGB]

Tabanli,

That is also a problem and I think that's too much too. Is there a restriction on high level heroes early in the game?

Why is it a problem? If you restrict it till turn 10 or turn 15 then what you do is you make the game more linear. As in you know you can't get certain units till turn X so you spend all your early gold on production and all players end up doing this. So the game becomes less dynamic in terms of possible ways to play/win. I'm not in favor of that because it makes the game boring. I find myself now no longer buying heroes in turns 3-6 and instead waiting for L2+ heroes to start arriving on turn 7 or later. I don't want to be doing the same looking for certain allies. Yes, once in a while a player will manage to get enough gold to get an early Dragon/Devil or other good ally but that's something you'll have to plan for.

Since we are getting to the bottom of allies I would like to discuss two more things. One is the Ally-Gold-Item ratio at level-1-2-3 ruins. I thing the ratio should be in favor of allies as the ruin level increases. It is very hard to get to near 33 UL and If I am risking my level 3 hero at a ruin, I should expect high percentage of a good ally. The reason is not so much that I don't like gold or level 3 items, it is be cause with allies in the ruin, there is no battle so it is risk free.

Except that most of the times when I am opening a L3 ruin I want gold. That's pretty much the only reason I am risking L3 ruins. I know most other players are opening L3 ruins for the same reason. So I personally don't want more allies in L3 even if it is risk free.

Also now that my item is a L1 item it will be much easier to get. Once you have it or a team mate has it you'll know which ruins you can safely visit.

The second thing is the item lists and their level. Before discussing further, I would like to say that defense leadership items gotta go from ruin rewards. They are such a useless items early in the game and it is one thing that discourage me from L-1 ruins.

Tell that to the Valkrie players! Those defensive items are a god send for the Valkrie especially if you get a couple of them. Like you, I am not fond of getting them either but I don't think they should be removed. It is a L1 ruin after all and the items inside should be very minor.

Finally let's make an item contest just like a map contest.

We already had one. All those to contributed a certain amount to the Kickstarter campaign got their own custom item. That's why you see items like Ken's Boots or The Eye of KGB.

KGB

[tabanli]

My only objection is to receiving Red Dragon ally with hero offers early in the game. All other units are mostly neutralizers and/or they give a small edge. But when someone receives a Red Dragons at turn 4 in a midsize map, you are really toasted. Red Dragon, Level 2 Barbarian and few crows/scouts suddenly becomes unstoppable. That really takes most of the fun in the game. This is a game of chance, maybe sometimes you should get lucky and sometimes you should get unlucky but let's play a few turns at least.

Now this is deviated from the topic and my concern is not related to ruin rewards. But we should restrict Red Dragon ally with hero offers early in the game. How early I don't know.

About the item contest, I guess I missed the kick-start. May I give a kick now

[tabanli]

Except that most of the times when I am opening a L3 ruin I want gold.
KGB

Most of the times when I am opening a L3 ruin, I want not to get slain.

[magian]

Well, I never gamble on opening a level 3 ruin without decent UL. If level 3 ruins are weighted more heavily towards allies, then that makes early gambles more likely to pay off. And rewards behaviors like risking a hero to get 4 demons or a red dragon in the early game. I can't see how that would have a positive impact on the game.

I (mostly) like the balance of level 3 ruins now. A few of the level 3 items are too weak, and some of the allies aren't good enough (like KGB I am mostly looking for a big gold payoff). However, I think it just needs a bit of tweaking here and there. The chances of gold vs ally vs item seems about right to me.

[KGB]

SnotlinG,

I'm looking at the Wiki on ruins (basic and battle). This appears to be out of date.

The basic's section doesn't mention Crusaders having +1 UL nor does it mention that getting allies requires no battle.

The Battle section is says L2 ruins only have 20 sided dice. But I think it's a 22 sided dice. Also in the L3 ruin guardians it shows only 2 Mummies but 3 Vampires. That seems strange when Mummies are weaker than Vampires. Is this info still correct on the guardian potentials and what are the minimums (ie the fewest number of skeletons you can face in a L3).

I'd be happy to update both sections if you granted me Wiki editing privileges and post up to date information.

KGB

[Experix]

I'm looking at the Wiki on ruins (basic and battle). This appears to be out of date.

It's not only problem with these section, Wiki at all is a big mess full of mistakes, wrong and old information, and missing a lot of important things. It's definitely the worst part of the game - learning the game is very difficult and time-consuming by itself - and this makes it even much more complicated.
For ruins - there are three different sources of info - wiki, on-mouse info, and 0.9 news - all of them different from each other and also from the reality.

[Experix]

Also, I would like to see a possibility to forbid certain items on certain maps. Finding anti-air items on maps with no fliers is no fun...

[KGB]

Also, I would like to see a possibility to forbid certain items on certain maps. Finding anti-air items on maps with no fliers is no fun...

That's easy to do. As the map maker just place the items on the map in some spot (like Lava). That way they can never appear in a ruin.

KGB

[tabanli]

I am working on a formula to quantify the effect of items based on hero leveling.

Leadership= 6.7 Points.Based on Paladin 3 leadership by 20 Points
Attacking Leadership= 3.8 Based on Valkyrie 4 Attack leadership by 15 points
Defense Leadership = 2.9 Subtracting.

Chaos is the same except city chaos is 5 Points.

Average 2.5 Undead lore for an ability point so
1 Undead Lore = 0.4 Ability points.

Personal strength Barbarian gets 7 for 5 points and everybody else gets 5. So I will take the average and use 6.

At the end, I might be able to tell what is the worth of an item in terms of hero leveling. So an item can be equivalent to a Hero getting 1 level up or 0.5 level up etc.

There are a few questions I would like to ask before proceeding. What to do when mixing ability points and skills. So an item gives 5 undead lore and 6 anti-air. I am thinking of considering them in equal footing but I know people like the skills much better. Also what to do about the least popular choices like individual move and view.

I am sure something like that has been done before but I guess I have some spare time and curious about the most powerful items.