Ruin Rewards

[Experix]

I've just first met the Eye of KGB. For the L1 item, it is extremely valuable. The problem are ruins with allies, immediately I got 2 demons (with limited fliers in quite valuable) and 1000 exp from L3 ruin with my UL 6 valkyria. In the other L3 not far away are two great archons. If it makes me possible to get valuable allies from L3, it's definitely L3 item for me rather than L1
Is there a reason why allies are free in ruins and not prisoned by undeads? It would make much more sense to me. The item would be still valuable, but anybody who would go to the ruin would still need decent UL to not risk much.
One more thing - it seems the UL of the hero with Eye is wrongly displayed in his screen.

[Chazar]

That actually sounds quite game breaking, in addition the immense XP gained from L3 alone.

[KGB]

Experix,

The Wiki says it gives +2 UL and +2 UL is what you hero has. Not sure what you think it wrong with it.

1000 XP sounds like a lot but it's not. For a L3 hero, 1000 XP is enough to go to L4 but for a higher level hero (L5+) it's only about 1/2 or 1/3 of a level. But I agree with whomever wrote that XP for ruins that contain allies should be reduced by half since there is no battle fought.

The reason allies are free is because that's traditionally how Warlords has worked from the original game way back in 1989. There are only guardians for gold and items.

KGB

P.S. I am glad you are enjoying my item. I am looking forward to finding it myself and using it. It's valuable but not game breaking. However it was never meant to show the exact reward. So if it's showing 2 Great Archons then it's not working right. It should just show 'Allies' or 'Gold' or 'Item' as the reward.

[Chazar]

The item is unique in the sense that it bestows something that cannot be achieved through any other means, which is a strong indicator for something game breaking. Allowing a player access to L3 ruins without needing a ruin dedicated hunter seems pretty strong, since it turns all heroes into possible ruin hunters!

It would be OK for a level 1 item if its power were limited to view range, or if Ally ruins had defenders.

[Experix]

KGB,
but my assassin should have basic UL 7, not 5.
For the same exp with same intelligence, I would need to get get two neutral cities with 2 and 3 turns defenders. Even if some were around, it would take much more time (and I would risk loosing some units). Now this experience is given me for free - I do not risk anything. Very easy to level up heroes this way
The item shows what's exactly in the ruin - allies, amount of gold, kind of item and guardians.
It was turn 11 when I found the item. I had 3 L3 heroes and 1 L2 at the moment. None of my L3 ones has raised his basic UL and wasn't meant to search any ruins except for L1, and even them with couple of scouts. Now I can pull valuable allies out from any ruin with any of them.
It seems game breaking for me, even if I didn't know what kind of allies is there. Still it would level up my heroes very quickly with absolutely no risk of anything, and I would get some very strong units (even two demons are very good on mostly non-flyers map). Normally, in the similar stage of the game, I search L2 ruins (usually with supporting units and not with every L2 hero). I could probably search some L3 if I trained some heroes that way and built enough supporting units, but usually I invest primary to expanding. Also, if I wanted to get such allies with hero offer, I would need a lot of gold for that. Comparing to some 400 gold or other L1 items, this one is miles ahead.
I think it would be still very valuable, if you had to fight undead for allies. It would still make it much easier, since you would know that you don't need as much UL for ruin you want to search as if you could expect some heavy guardians there and you knew what kind of award to expect.

Chazar,
it has limited power to view range of all of your units. At the moment I found it, it meant two L3 and at least 4 L2 ruins I had immediatly around my troops and cities (this includes all of ruins my heroes can quickly reach). With each new turn, I can check more. I could quickly check all the map which isn't under heavy enemy's control.
So I think only limiting the item to view of his wearer would make it comparable to other L1 items.

[KGB]

Experix,

but my assassin should have basic UL 7, not 5.

Duh. I didn't notice that. I only saw it was giving +2 UL which is what it should give.

The item shows what's exactly in the ruin - allies, amount of gold, kind of item and guardians.

That's a bug. I will report that in the bug section. It should show the exact guardians and the reward should be listed as gold, allies, or item. Giving the specific amounts is too good.

It seems game breaking for me, even if I didn't know what kind of allies is there. Still it would level up my heroes very quickly with absolutely no risk of anything, and I would get some very strong units (even two demons are very good on mostly non-flyers map).

It's only game breaking in the sense you are getting a lot of XP for collecting allies. If the XP is reduced to 1/2 or 1/4 then you won't be able to get much XP when obtaining allies.

The fact you can see there are allies in some places is nice. But very often it requires several turns to go there and back with your hero which means that hero is not doing something else. Also you may not get the item till mid/late in the game by which time you already have dedicated ruin hunting heroes or most of the ruins are searched.

I don't consider the item game breaking at all. Just a nice item to have.

So I think only limiting the item to view of his wearer would make it comparable to other L1 items.

That would make it useless. No one would ever spend time to walk to a ruin to see what's inside if they had to get into view range unless they already were going to search it. It has to work from anywhere you have unfogged.

KGB

[Experix]

It's only game breaking in the sense you are getting a lot of XP for collecting allies. If the XP is reduced to 1/2 or 1/4 then you won't be able to get much XP when obtaining allies.

If I go to ruin, I am prepared to fight. Also, I expect to gain some decent exp. For example, I know that if I search 2 L2 ruins with my L2 hero, he would be surely L3 afterwards. Finding allies far from front lines and not gaining enough exp would be disappointing for me. If the fact that allies weren't guarded in Warlords is the only reason for not having guards in allies ruins here, it is a pretty poor one for me.

The fact you can see there are allies in some places is nice. But very often it requires several turns to go there and back with your hero which means that hero is not doing something else. Also you may not get the item till mid/late in the game by which time you already have dedicated ruin hunting heroes or most of the ruins are searched.

I search L1 ruins mainly in the beginning of game, later it's often lost time if the ruin isn't directly on the way. So players are likely to discover the item early. When I discovered it, I was able to get to most of ruins on the map with some of my heroes in the current or next turn. It's not a big map. And if there were allies in them, it would be worth that. You were talking about 5% chance of ghost/elemental in L1. But this item gives you free and much more valuable allies during the hold game, you have only to pick them up. If you have your heroes so badly placed at the moment you find the item, it would surely change in one or two turns, as I mentioned, in few turns you can check all the ruins which aren't inside the enemy's territory. If I have specialized ruin searcher, I have max one. I try to search ruins with other heroes if possible, I don't need high level searcher, but high level heroes I use in battles. The item not only helps the way I don't need high UL to have high probability of surviving anytime, but allows me to get allies with any of my 5-7 heroes and not only one specialized in that.

[Experix]

I would surely changed any of L2 items (even several of them) for yours

[KGB]

Experix,

If I go to ruin, I am prepared to fight. Also, I expect to gain some decent exp. For example, I know that if I search 2 L2 ruins with my L2 hero, he would be surely L3 afterwards. Finding allies far from front lines and not gaining enough exp would be disappointing for me. If the fact that allies weren't guarded in Warlords is the only reason for not having guards in allies ruins here, it is a pretty poor one for me.

But why would a couple of skeletons be able keep 2 Demons prisoner? It makes sense that guardians can have gold and items. But powerful allies would simply kill the guardians and escape.

I didn't realize until very recently that the XP from ruins was random (like the gold amount given out). I had assumed that you got a base amount of XP (say 100 for L1, 200 for L2 and 400 for L3) and then more XP based on how many/good the guardians were. So that each Skeleton might give +75 more XP, each Ghoul 150, each Mummy 225, each Vampire 300. If that were the way XP was awarded then getting allies would give some XP but not a whole lot.

I search L1 ruins mainly in the beginning of game, later it's often lost time if the ruin isn't directly on the way. So players are likely to discover the item early. When I discovered it, I was able to get to most of ruins on the map with some of my heroes in the current or next turn. It's not a big map. And if there were allies in them, it would be worth that. You were talking about 5% chance of ghost/elemental in L1. But this item gives you free and much more valuable allies during the hold game, you have only to pick them up. If you have your heroes so badly placed at the moment you find the item, it would surely change in one or two turns, as I mentioned, in few turns you can check all the ruins which aren't inside the enemy's territory. If I have specialized ruin searcher, I have max one. I try to search ruins with other heroes if possible, I don't need high level searcher, but high level heroes I use in battles. The item not only helps the way I don't need high UL to have high probability of surviving anytime, but allows me to get allies with any of my 5-7 heroes and not only one specialized in that.

So you are saying sometimes the item is very useful. Which I agree. But sometimes it won't be depending on the map, the stage of the game etc. There is no guarantee it is available in any ruin at the start of the game much less a ruin close to your start city. Once the item is adjusted to not list the exact reward and the amount of XP is reduced on ruins containing allies the item will be fine. And the item does not *give* you allies. You have to go to the ruin with a hero to acquire them. And you've already said if the ruin is far away and the XP is not as much suddenly it's not worth it to go 2-3 turns to get an ally when you don't know what kind it will be.

For example I play a lot of Barbarians. I LOVE LOVE LOVE finding Ragnarok in one of the first couple ruins. It's a huge boost to suddenly have a 40 strength Barb on turn 2 or 3. It makes conquering the map that much easier as he just blows through early cities with little fear of dying. I have literally won games purely because my Barb collected 2x as many cities as my opponent and won a Barb vs Barb battle thanks to Ragnarok. But later in the game Ragnarok is much less valuable so I don't think it's a game breaking item.

KGB

[SnotlinG]

Thanks for all the feedback regarding ruins/allies & KGBs item
We are looking into how to change this the best way, involving less code-updates...

For now I would be interested to know feedback regarding % chance of finding allies in the ruins.
For example:
Level 1 ruin 0% ?
Level 2 ruin 25 % ?
Level 3 ruin 30% ?