Adjustment request for Archon

[tabanli]

We have been discussing this for a while and Archon seems to be overpriced and ineffective. I would like to request the following changes.

Price Drop: Archon is less efficient and probably than almost all of the 3 turn units. It should be devaluated to something in between 900-1200

Move Up: Move should be 18, equal to demons less than Great Archon

Upkeep Down: Could be 8.

[Chazar]

I don't like the idea of reducing the blue Archon's production cost and upkeep: Countering strong heroes should take some considerable determination and effort. Barbarian and Assassin become too important if Archons can be obtained too easily.

That said, some kind of buff might be called for indeed:

• I would suggest 20 or even 21 move, so that they can actually catch heroes (flyers are so nicely slow now). GrandArchons may remain slower, but their bonus is better - a fair choice, keeping both units interesting.
• Increase their negate to 8. This might give them a chance against all those HorseLords and Rangers with their incredible leadership skill. (I think the Leadership increment of HorseLord and Ranger is 2-5 points too high for my taste, but that is another matter.)
• Increase their strength by a few points, say to 27. It always bugged me that an archon is not even a little bit stronger than ordinary heavy cavalry without terrain bonus.

Maybe all of the above might already be too much? Let's see.

[KGB]

8 Negate is too much for the Archon. That literally invalidates the DK and Pally until they are at least L5 and even then they get next to nothing in bonus. If we need more counter against HL/Ranger then it's probably better to lower those upgrades slightly (or make them more expensive).

Strength of 30 and a movement of 20 seem quite reasonable.

KGB

[strach]

8 Negate is too much for the Archon. That literally invalidates the DK and Pally

And Pally is valid on what grounds?

[Negern]

To work better vs hl and ranger without becoming too strong vs pala and dk, maybe the archon could get 2 negate terrain. Then it'd be 8 vs the terrain specific hero types while remaining at 6 vs the classics.

[Chazar]

To work better vs hl and ranger without becoming too strong vs pala and dk, maybe the archon could get 2 negate terrain. Then it'd be 8 vs the terrain specific hero types while remaining at 6 vs the classics.

Well, negate terrain only works against terrain dependent strength bonus, but I take it that you meant a terrain dependent negate heroism.

I think this is going in the wrong direction. Although I love the idea of terrain dependent variations of all bonus kinds, not just strength, morale, chaos and leadership, I think it might make it too complicated overall. Rangers and HorseLords ought to be toned down a little bit, requiring them 1 or 2 levels more before they max out their leadership skills at the current levels.

However, this thread is about the archon. Move 20 and Strength 30 are on the table. Would this be enough for people to buy them? Do they need another increase elsewhere? Or another bonus?
(I think that it might be enough already to try out on the field an see.)

[magian]

I doubt I would ever buy them, even with M20 S30. I could only see myself doing so in a very desperate situation with little gold/time vs a leadership+chaos combo stack.

Still, with some more move and a bit of punch, I may not feel quite so shafted when I pull one out of a ruin.

[KGB]

Nothing is going to make anyone ever buy the Archon. It just doesn't make sense to buy the most specialized unit in the game (only works against heroes and even then only 4 of the 7 really have Leader/Chaos as a prime skill to negate) when it's so rarely used/needed. Unless you were to make ridiculous changes such as making it a 2 turn unit for 500 gold.

What you can accomplish here what Magian suggests. Making it so getting an Archon Ally in a ruin/hero offer isn't so bad that you refuse the offer/hate the reward and so that when you find the occasional neutral that makes the Archon you don't auto-pillage it.

A M20,S30 and a reduction in cost to 1000 (not so someone buys it but so that the pillage value is reduced) should accomplish that.

KGB

[tabanli]

It's not about buying as pointed out by KGB, it is also about when you occupy. With 20 move I would definitely occupy a city with Archon instead of plundering it. I think it is the right value. It goes really well with Assassin stacks with Ghosts. It would give Assassin something to fight against Ranger or Paladin + Crusader stacks. Same move as the Ghosts, it will not slow down the Assassin at all.

As magician pointed out, with 20 move I would definitely include it in my hero stack when I get one from the ruin, it wouldn't slow down the stack even with some roads on the map.

[Negern]

Do you people pillage/never buy grand archons either?