Warbaron's Cup 2013

[KGB]

1) I think Igor's suggestion of 5 player groups with 2 players moving on is too many. That means you are moving 40% of the players to round 2. If there were 8 players in each group then moving 2 on (25% makes sense). Too many players moving on is one of the reasons the tournament will drag on too long. If you are going with 8 groups of 5 players then only top player moves on leaving 8 players in round 2 and you can potentially finish entirely with 2 rounds. This speeds up the tourney by an entire round. Also remember that after round 1, eliminated players can go back to playing ladder games / fun games / FFA games /team games etc because most players are going to reduce the number of other games played when they have to take on 4+ additional games.

2) I suggest selecting 2 (maybe 3) default maps that *must* be used if players can't agree on a map. I'd suggest these be 100x maps (medium sized) but ultimately it's AngryOgre's tourney so he should make the final selection of the 2-3 maps.

3) I also suggest AngryOgre be the ultimate arbitrator of disputes in case where players can't agree on a map (then AngryOgre picks one of the default maps for them to play on). The same goes for handling complaints about a player deliberately stalling (taking max days to move over and over in a lost game) and be allowed to award a player a win in case where their opponent is stalling even if the game isn't complete.

4) I still believe 3 day turn limits is needed (mid way between 1 and 5). To speed up games I would suggest city capture % be set to 70% instead of 80. I'd also suggest NOT playing with ladder settings. The reason is that by allowing players to see their opponents city/army count you will definitely get players to resign faster knowing they are in a hopeless game. In ladder play many players probably play on much longer thinking their opponent isn't as strong as they are.

KGB

[Igor]

Many players have 3 games limit, that affects on choise between ladder/non-ladder option for non-ladder games in the tourney.

1st round with 8 groups of 5 players, ought to be 2 winners who goes on I think. If only one goes on, it will be unreally difficult for 80% players to go through 1st round.
To lose 80% players after 1st round looks too much. I would like to see more players in 2nd round. 16 looks more resonable.

I see no reason to finish the tourney after 2nd round, let it be next - final round.
Looks more interesting to define final group of 4 players who will play or each with each or 2 semifinals and final with match for 3rd place. It is discussed now what is better - group round or semifinals.

About a map for first round, I would offer something that let to complete games in a month (15 or max 20 turns).
We ought to choose a default map. But there was interesting idea of KGB, that players could choose their own map. This means, if 2 players who play each other will say that they choose other map - let it be that map.
I also agree with this idea for 1st round.

As the default map I would offer High Seas Combat. This map is often in use. Fast enough to complete a game in 15-20 turns. This map supposes all types of fighting: land, air and sea and all types of units can be in use.
In the same time we might discuss something else, middle size I hope.

[Igor]

I still believe 3 day turn limits is needed (mid way between 1 and 5)

You count not rightly a little, should count middle between 2-3-4 turns per day (that means 6-8-12 hours per turn) and 5 days. Compromise is 2 days delay.

[Igor]

We have 39 players who is in at the moment.
Let me offer to separate players on 4 "baskets" for proportional dividing between groups. Coming into each bascet depends on successes in current games (based on ladder stats):

Red basket - players who at least once was in top 3 in 1vs1 ladder seasons;
Green basket - players who at least once was in top 15 in 1vs1 or FFA ladder seasons;
White basket - players who wasn't yet in top 15 in 1vs1 or FFA ladder seasons.
Players inside each basket are devided by alphabet.


Red basket (8 players):
AngryOgre, Experix, Igor, razurandal, Solo, tabanli; let me also include in this group our special guests in the tourney Piranha and SnotlinG.

Green basket (18 players):
Art, AtomicDustmen, Chazar, Garesch, IsoA, kerog, KGB, lawlord, LordNerevar, magian, nobibla, RaakaArska, SatanicLan, smursh, strach, TheVic, Tim, Zaque.

White basket (13 players):
Erotavlas, Feanor, Freaky, gil, Gulgar, Khardan, Kohl, mdoh, Mixel, Moonknight, mowhar, SCIkick, SirDrinkALot.

We are waiting for 40th player to create groups for the first round.

By the way, Experix offered to make tourney games for ladder in the same time.
I also agree with this if both opponents vote for it. And so for chosing map another than default map.

[nagrogin]

OK, count me in.

I have virtually zero 1-vs-1 experience, so I don't fancy my
chances on these various maps. But willing to give it a shot.

Also not a premium player, so my entering this tourney will
crimp my team-playing perhaps.

[Igor]

Greate! 40 players are in.
We can now include all players into three "baskets" and then to divide between groups.

Red basket (8 players):
Piranha, SnotlinG, AngryOgre, Experix, Igor, razurandal, Solo, tabanli.

Green basket (19 players):
Art, AtomicDustmen, Chazar, Garesch, IsoA, kerog, KGB, lawlord, LordNerevar, magian, nagrogin, nobibla, RaakaArska, SatanicLan, smursh, strach, TheVic, Tim, Zaque.

White basket (13 players):
Erotavlas, Feanor, Freaky, gil, Gulgar, Khardan, Kohl, mdoh, Mixel, Moonknight, mowhar, SCIkick, SirDrinkALot.

All players are devided between 8 groups of 5 players each. 1st step is to include Red busket players, 1 per each group. Next step is deviding Green basket players, organized by alphabet. Final step is dividing White basket players between groups also by alphabet.
This is how groups look:

1st group:
Piranha, Art, LordNerevar, TheVic, Khardan.

2nd group:
SnotlinG, AtomicDustmen, magian, Tim, Kohl.

3rd group:
AngryOgre, Chazar, nagrogin, Zaque, mdoh.

4th group:
Experix, Garesch, nobibla, Erotavlas, Mixel.

5th group:
Igor, IsoA, RaakaArska, Feanor, Moonknight.

6th group:
razurandal, kerog, SatanicLan, Freaky, mowhar.

7th group:
Solo, KGB, smursh, gil, SCIkick.

8th group:
tabanli, lawlord, strach, Gulgar, SirDrinkALot.


2 players who will win a group will go on to the 2nd round where will be 4 groups of 4 players.
Deviding between 4 groups in 2nd round depend on group numbering in 1st round and 1st or 2nd place in group.
Shouldn't also play in one group players who got 1st and 2nd placed in the same group in 1st round, just for to have different opponents than in 1st round.
Groups for 2nd round look:

1st group:
Winner of 1st group in round 1st
Winner of 5th group in round 1st
Second player of 2nd group in round 1st
Second player of 6th group in round 1st

2nd group:
Winner of 2nd group in round 1st
Winner of 6th group in round 1st
Second player of 1st group in round 1st
Second player of 5th group in round 1st

3rd group:
Winner of 3rd group in round 1st
Winner of 7th group in round 1st
Second player of 4th group in round 1st
Second player of 8th group in round 1st

4th group:
Winner of 4th group in round 1st
Winner of 8th group in round 1st
Second player of 3rd group in round 1st
Second player of 7th group in round 1st


Only winners of groups in 2nd round go to the final.
Structure of final round is in discussing now.
There are 2 variants:
Variant 1 is to create final group of 4 players for playing 1 with 3 others.
Variant 2 is to have 2 semifinals then final match and match for 3rd place.
If semifinals will be in use, it is:
Winner of 1st group in round 2nd vs Winner of 3rd group in round 2nd
Winner of 2nd group in round 2nd vs Winner of 4th group in round 2nd

Anyway need 4 players go to final round.


We are almost ready to create games to start the tourney. Need to define default map for 1st round which is in discussing.
Now offered High Seas Combat map that has all types of terrain and middle size, good for 15-20 turns to complete a game.
Other suggestions are welcome.

[SnotlinG]

AngryOgre, Igor,
We are very very close to launching the next version of warbarons. If possible please hold of creating the tourneygames just a few days more, since it would be a shame running them on the old version

[Igor]

Sure! Would be greate to play on new version.

[Chazar]

How is the second winner decided?

[Igor]

Winner is who has more won games than others have. So, 2nd player in group is who has less won games than the winner has, but more than others have.

Special question is how to define two better players in group if 3 players have the same number of won games and they beated each other: 1st beated 2nd who beated 3rd, and 3rd beated 1st, and let it be that all they beated 4th and 5th, for example. What to do in this case is non-discussed before.
Looks the simplest way to continue number of turns in won games.
But what is better - less turns or more turns?
Less turns can mean that the advantage of the winner was huge that let him to win so fast.
More turns can mean that the winner beated more strong opponent.
Any thought are welcome.