What has happened?

[KGB]

SnotlinG my way of knowing unit properties is going into "fight order" from inside the game i looked up wiki and it seems movement is updated there but if you look in fight order it shows other movement properties

If you look in Fightorder inside the game, the Ranger has move-symbols for Forest, Hill and Swamp, which is the terrains she is moving in at a reduced cost. Maybe I misunderstand your question?
If you look at the Horselord in the fightorder he is showing symbols for Hill and Swamp, since these are the only terrains that he move in at a reduced cost.

sorry i cant figure it out i really tried this will be a good time to ban me for stupidity
where is it explained ranger have 2 cost at trees and 4 cost at swamp

do move-symbols for Forest, Hill and Swamp have types or powers?

Actually the Ranger only gets move bonus in the Forest. In the Wiki look at the Ranger and note the Forest Movement symbol (terrain movement in the mouse over).
http://www.warbarons.com/wiki/units3
From there you can look in the Terrain table I reference before to see the value for each unit (Note that I missed adding the Ranger to the Movement Bonus table). I agree it would be nicer if the mouse over in the unit table showed the value rather than needing to cross reference to that 2nd table to see it's value.

This is different from the Hero Movement Skill Bonus that all heroes can buy. Confused yet

KGB

[gil]

KGB was that for real?

"computer will always do a better job than the players"

KGB

did you ever play backgammon?
there are 24 square on that map
there are 36 possible dice throws
there is only on type of unit
and still game is has near a lot of possible moves and strategies

compare that to WB
there are 50 X 50=2500 square on a small map
there are over a 1000 possible dice throws per battle
there 36 different types of units

asking someone to understand all that and do the math is unfair.
personally i think its more fun to do the innovative human staff then the computerized math.

PS: all amazing AI chess computers have the memory of all chess games ever played by human experts and there default play is to follow the human winning strategy the AI thinking DO NOT win over a human. my home desktop cannot win a chess game because it is 2 slow go check all human games ever played and choose a move.

to this day no software has ever created an innovative thinking process at a level close to the human brain.

[KGB]

Gil,

There are actually far less than 36 possible dice throws in Backgammon because a 1 and 6 is the same as a 6 and 1 in terms of its affect on the game. Like Chess, Backgammon has been 'solved' by computers so they know the exact optimal moves for each position and each throw of the dice.

PS: all amazing AI chess computers have the memory of all chess games ever played by human experts and there default play is to follow the human winning strategy the AI thinking DO NOT win over a human. my home desktop cannot win a chess game because it is 2 slow go check all human games ever played and choose a move.

Actually that's *exactly* what human players do too. They also use all the prior learning knowledge of games (chess books and other human chess teachers) to become experts. They memorize openings and endings (which is the same as a computer using a database). No human becomes an expert just from 'thinking' because it would take MANY lifetimes to play enough games and become an expert by experience compared to using the prior knowledge of other players.

And actually your home PC, assuming it's less than 3 years old is most definitely good enough to defeat the top players in the world. Here's a link from a 2007 match where a top 5 player played 6 games against a computer. The human player got White all 6 games, got 2x as much time and the computer only had a 3 move opening 'database' which is something even I as an average player know. Didn't matter, he lost 3 and drew 3.
http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/2007/07 ... lvest.html

Here's an even better one from this year. A Human GM gets use of a 7 year old Chess program (the one used in the above games) to help him and he STILL can't beat today's best chess programs even though the program didn't have ANY opening book at all and had to literally 'learn' the game as it played.
http://www.chess.com/article/view/how-r ... -the-world

to this day no software has ever created an innovative thinking process at a level close to the human brain.

This is true. But they don't need innovation because their raw processing power exceeds that of the human brain and that lead continues to grow year after year. There is also a LOT of effort being done to create innovative thinking programs. You can check out one such effort here.
http://deepmind.com/

Eventually generic learning algorithms will be developed. Likely sometime in the next 20 years.

KGB

[gil]

my point is a human will know where and when to take the risk while a computer will not.
it is my belief the knowledge of the % before the fight will make game more fun and user friendly hopefully more players will share opinions

PS: a human will know the past moves and create the future moves a computer can only use the past inventions made by a human. all thinking software has never given the man a way to adapt actually it was also requested that the human players follow the "normal tactics".

[Chazar]

my point is a human will know where and when to take the risk while a computer will not.
it is my belief the knowledge of the % before the fight will make game more fun and user friendly hopefully more players will share opinions

Yes! In addition, it makes learning how the bonus system works much more intuitive and accessible - since experimenting is way more natural than reading manuals.

[KGB]

my point is a human will know where and when to take the risk while a computer will not.
it is my belief the knowledge of the % before the fight will make game more fun and user friendly hopefully more players will share opinions

Yes! In addition, it makes learning how the bonus system works much more intuitive and accessible - since experimenting is way more natural than reading manuals.

I think what Gil is asking for here is a 'combat adviser' that simply tells you you are X% likely to win a battle such as the one that existed in War2. You'd click on on the enemy and get a winning % displayed. I'm OK with this provided:
1) It's never used in ladder games
2) It's an option that can be turned on/off in non-ladder games in the same manner that Fog of War can be.

Then newbie players can play non-ladder games with the adviser turned on to help them learn the percentages before they fight a battle. But no one else will be forced to use this feature.

Note that this is *totally* different than a separate combat calculator that lets players drag/drop units in an interface and fight battles. That's what I am completely against since such an interface can be used in any game.

KGB

[Moonknight]

I think what Gil is asking for here is a 'combat adviser' that simply tells you you are X% likely to win a battle such as the one that existed in War2. You'd click on on the enemy and get a winning % displayed. I'm OK with this provided:
1) It's never used in ladder games
2) It's an option that can be turned on/off in non-ladder games in the same manner that Fog of War can be.

Then newbie players can play non-ladder games with the adviser turned on to help them learn the percentages before they fight a battle. But no one else will be forced to use this feature.

Note that this is *totally* different than a separate combat calculator that lets players drag/drop units in an interface and fight battles. That's what I am completely against since such an interface can be used in any game.

KGB

I'd be on board with that as KGB has laid it out...

[Chazar]

I think what Gil is asking for here is a 'combat adviser' that simply tells you you are X% likely to win a battle such as the one that existed in War2.

A Warlords2-style advisor would not help people to learn and understand how the bonus system works! It is completely opaque - the opposite of the ingame-transparency that is actually needed to help beginners learn more easily.

[gil]

KGB

nop i dont think that type of calc will help
to help players you need to allow the "what if" on attack issues?
what if i add a unicorn
what if i add an archon
what if i upgrade hero __ property
what if i put this in front of my fight order
what if ...

and if i get lucky convincing you to give us an attack what if tool.
id also ask for a moment "what's needed" tool
what units do i need to get my stack/my lone hero from here to there in the shortest time


i have seen a few attack tactics i like to have my strong unit at 90% losing my front units and saving strong onse. others like to put strong units in front and loose nothing if not unlucky.

same likes to upgrade there hero combo from start and others split heroes for faster upgrade others collect gold and w9 for an amazing offer

i think a tool giving us the ability to understand risk/gain on the map we play now will make this game a lot more fun then what most of us is doing now and that's group everything together and send it in hoping it'll work not really knowing why we won or lost

[KGB]

So if you just need to learn how the bonus system works you don't need a combat calculator.

All you need is a *very* simply screen with 2 Dwarves (attack bonus) + 1 Sandworm (ignore walls) + 1 Hv Inf VS 1 Dwarf + 1 Sandworm (ignore walls) + 2 Hv Inf (defend bonus) on hill terrain (Dwarves) or city terrain (wall bonus selectable 0-15). Then have the ability to add to either stack:
1) Ram (negate wall)
2) Unicorn (terrain negate + negate)
3) Pegasi (morale)
4) Medusa (fear)
5) Devil (fear + negate)
6) DK Hero (chaos selectable 1-30)
7) Paladin Hero (leadership selectable 1-30)
8) Archon (negate)
9) Assassin hero (group ambush selectable 1-100)
10) Mammoth (group warding)

The original stacks plus the 10 units above plus hill / city terrain illustrate EVERY combat bonus / combination in the game. So show basic calculation including all bonus of the original 4v4 on the selected terrain with extra explanations of what's what beyond the regular battle screen. As players add some of those 10 units to each stack (obviously can only add 4 max to each stack) show the resulting bonus numbers again with extra explanation.

That's all you need to know to figure out the bonus system works in the game. You can play to your hearts content seeing what works and what doesn't without invalidating actual game situations.

KGB