Teamstacks

[makeixo]

This leads to serious abuses in combat.
KGB

First I dont see the point of abuse. If I manage to use a unit in more then one battle in my opinion thats not an abuse. Second yet I can do the same as a player. Third units have limited move points.

But I think this point also can be managed. When you join a stack the unit has to stay the whole turn in the stack o at least with last attacking unit in the case your team mate divides the stack.

Nobody has to control the amount. If you have 92 units you can reassign 9. When you have reassigned 9 units the "join-button" stays inaktive/grey. If you have the next turn 108u you can reassign another unit. If you lose 3 units (=89 units) the units stay reassigned but if you or your team mate lose one, you cannot reassign another, because you only can reassign 8 units.

If a team member surrender you keep your units because they are yours.

I think it also can be a game setting. with team stacks and without

[gil]

i'm with makeixo gotta give this game team strategy features

[KGB]

First I dont see the point of abuse. If I manage to use a unit in more then one battle in my opinion thats not an abuse. Second yet I can do the same as a player. Third units have limited move points.

Except most of the units (Red Dragon, Grand Archon etc) that will be abused are ones that come from hero offers / ruins and have good movement. So it's going to make those offers/finds that much more unbalancing if one team gets a Red Dragon and can share it among several team mates stacks. Being able to increase the power of multiple stacks by +10 is very over powering.

But I think this point also can be managed. When you join a stack the unit has to stay the whole turn in the stack o at least with last attacking unit in the case your team mate divides the stack.

I don't see how the game can enforce this. Lets say my Red Dragon joins my teammates stack and we attack and all his units die. Then my dragon is 'free' and can do as he pleases. Or he can separate out all his units but 1 and then disband 1 unit freeing my dragon again. This for sure isn't viable nor would it be very easy to explain. Units have to be able to freely join/leave any time they want.

Nobody has to control the amount. If you have 92 units you can reassign 9. When you have reassigned 9 units the "join-button" stays inaktive/grey. If you have the next turn 108u you can reassign another unit. If you lose 3 units (=89 units) the units stay reassigned but if you or your team mate lose one, you cannot reassign another, because you only can reassign 8 units.

The game absolutely has to manage this. It HAS to track exactly which units I send (Smursh mentioned special coloring). It must do this because if I have 100 units and send my team mate 10 units and 2 die in battle (or are disbanded) I should now be able to send 2 more since he only has 8 of my units. Furthermore he should be able to give those units back to me so I can give him different ones in another area. Also imagine we each have 100 units. I give him 10 so I have 90 and he has 110. He should then be able to give me back 10 of his, not 11 and also he should be able to technically give me back 20 (my 10 plus 10 of his own) so that I have 110 and he has 90. This is a unit tracking nightmare and will require a lot of code and testing and probably bug fixing to get right.

KGB

[Chazar]

The existing proposals seem a bit complicated to me, but I like the idea of team attacks.

How about this simple compromise, which ought to be easy to implement and also allows works well with the asynchronous game play:

1. Stacks that sit next to an enemy city can be marked as active (similar to marking a unit to defend, just a different mini-icon to display).

2. If any team player attacks that city then, he can select up to one of those active stacks.

3. Both stacks are combined into ONE stack, but only for the duration of the attack. The combination works exactly like for multiple team stacks defending a city together. (Positioning next to the city is ignored for simplicity.)

4. After the attack, the attackers are either all dead or are moved into the city. Since a newly conquered city has four squares, there must be am empty square left for the secondary stack.


This mechanic could be extended to any attacks on any enemy stack. One could also impose a limit on the number of attackers (secondary stack cannot be selected if the total number of attackers exceeds some fixed number). However, I believe it would be best and the most simple choice to allow up to 16 combined attackers (ie 2 Stacks in City Attacks only).

[makeixo]

rdrgn: On the other hand – especially early in the game - it is maybe easier to encounter a rdrgn as a team.

„The game absolutely has to manage this...“ I dont have any knowledge about coding, but the game already tracks everything. How many units I have. Which units I have, etc...

Why the unit has to change ownership and colour? It is still my unit. If my unit joins a stack, I only give permission to use it. But the unit still should be listed in my stats.
The stack only can be moved by its owner, therefore it should keep the colour of its owner – no extra colours are needed. If you want to mark the unit, its enough when the unit gets a little staple or coloured square on the right user interface.

[KGB]

Chazar,

The original poster wanted team stacks more for sharing movement (ie having your hero hop on a team mates Eagle to cross some water or hitching a ride across the desert on a team mates Sandworm) than he did attacking.

The problem to solve was what do to about team stacks when attacking (fight order, loaning heroes/bonus units etc). If team stacks were allowed only for defense AND movement (ie no attacking with a team stack) I'd be fine with it and that would be the simplest.

What you propose below is all about using multiple stacks (team or your own) to attack cities. That's something else entirely and was discussed several years ago.

Your proposal still has problems in that:
1) Stacks not next to each other can be used (ie stacks on opposite side of city) even in cases where they are totally separated (ie can't get next to each other due to terrain like water/mountains preventing it).
2) Stacks that otherwise could not attack can be used (ie boats in water next to city) could be used.

I'm not really in favor of allowing multiple stacks to combine into one big stack for city assaults. I'm definitely against allowing it for non-city attacks (ie single stack).

KGB

[KGB]

rdrgn: On the other hand – especially early in the game - it is maybe easier to encounter a rdrgn as a team.

For defensive purposes I'm OK with combining units in a stack for defense. I'm even fine with combining units to aid movement (ie fly a hero or get better movement rates) which I believe was a big part of what you originally wanted it for. I'm just not OK with using team stacks for attacking. If that's not allowed I think your proposal is fine and very workable.

Why the unit has to change ownership and colour? It is still my unit. If my unit joins a stack, I only give permission to use it. But the unit still should be listed in my stats.
The stack only can be moved by its owner, therefore it should keep the colour of its owner – no extra colours are needed. If you want to mark the unit, its enough when the unit gets a little staple or coloured square on the right user interface.

Somehow you have to be able to find your units esp in large games with lots of units/team mates. So they have to be marked in some manner so you can find them:

1) Team stacks need to be designated with a special icon/coloring so you can tell there are combined units in them when looking at the map.
2) Individual units in the stack menu have to indicate ownership so you can easily remove your units when you wish.

Note that what you said in this paragraph above is is totally different than transferring ownership of units to a teammate which I said is not workable for balance reasons.

KGB

[makeixo]

Well, for me the biggest reason was/is for the proposal, that in my opinion if you play as a team you should have the possibility to help each other.

[smursh]

you are able to help team mates under the current system. You can transfer gold to help your ally get heroes or unit upgrades. You can port units to his cities to help defend then(allowing his units to concentrate on offense).

And of course you can work together on strategy during a game, discussing things through the message portal.

[KGB]

Technically you can transfer gold to anyone, not just a teammate. But you do also automatically share map scouting information with your team mates including viewing ruins when you have the Eye of KGB.

I think any additions should be very easy ones in terms of:
1) Coding
2) Game Balance
3) Understanding (ie no need to write a complex Wiki entry to describe how it works).

That's why I think allowing team stacks for defending/movement makes sense because it meets all three things above. Attacking or transferring units permanently doesn't.

KGB