XP implications on hero behavior

[KGB]

Piranha,

DLR used the following names for the bonus/opposite bonus

Leadership/Chaos
Morale/Fear
Fortify/Siege

So you could use Fear if you want to follow the DLR model which would help players coming from DLR easily use the bonus system.

Googling for an antonym (word that means opposite) of Morale gives: aimlessness, uncertainty, self-doubt. So Chaos might actually be the better name for the opposite bonus.

In that case the opposite of Leadership (command) would be Discord or Strife (I prefer Discord).

KGB

[Pillager]

Yes, Fear or Chaos would be the DLR equivalents...

Fear is probably the best way to go. You could up the ante and call it Terror.

I am still an advocate for adopting the DLR system for bonuses (IE fear vs morale, leadership vs chaos).

[piranha]

How does that work? Just like stack and negative stack? Or is there some other kind of system?

[KGB]

Piranha,

They work almost the same as stack/negative stack.

The differences are:

1) There is no absolute cancel bonus power like the Devil/Archon have.
2) Each bonus category (leadership/chaos, morale/fear, fortify/siege) range is totaled separately.
3) Each category range is from +5 to -1. That is you can never have worse than a -1 applied to your overall bonus from any of the 3 categories (Leadership/Chaos, Morale/Fear, Fortify/Siege).
4) The 3 separate calculations are added together. The overall bonus range is capped at +5 but the lower limit now drops to -3 (if you ended up getting a -1 in every category).

Here are some simple examples to show what I mean:

A) A Hero with +5 leadership faces a light infantry. The overall bonus is +5 (5-0)
B) A Dragon with +2 morale faces a light infantry. The overall bonus is +2 (2-0)
C) A Dragon with +2 morale faces a medusa with +1 fear. The overall bonus is +1 (2-1)

These are what you'd expect from how the game works now. Nothing unusual there. Now lets look at some more complex examples. For that, lets assume that the Archon is given a Chaos bonus of +4 and the Devil is given a Fear bonus of +4.

A) A Hero with +1 leadership faces an Archon with +4 chaos. The overall bonus is -1 (1-4, limited to -1)
B) A Hero with +3 leadership faces an Archon with +4 chaos. The overall bonus is -1 (3-4)
C) A Hero with +5 leadership faces an Archon with +4 chaos. The overall bonus is +1 (5-4)
D) A Dragon with +2 morale faces a Devil with +4 fear. The overall bonus is -1 (2-4, limited to -1)
E) A Hero with +5 leadership and a Dragon with +2 morale face an Archon with +4 chaos and a Devil with +4 fear. The overall bonus is 0 (5-4 + 2-4, limited to -1)
F) A Hero with +3 leadership faces a Devil with +4 fear. The overall bonus is 2 (3-0 + 0-4, limited to -1)
G) A light infantry faces an Archon with +4 chaos and a Devil with +4 fear. The overall bonus is -2 (0-4, limited to -1 + 0-4, limited to -1)

Example (F) shows how the separate calculations come into play when different bonus's face off.
Example (G) shows how you can get to -2 when you don't have positive bonus's in any category to offset the negative ones.

The advantage of this system is that the Devil/Archon aren't absolute bonus killers. The other advantage is that the Devil/Archon aren't wasted in stacks as they are now if the enemy doesn't have any bonus to cancel (ie an Archon is a useless unit when not facing an enemy hero) because they will always apply a -1 in their category. The last advantage is you can create units with bonus's in the range of 1-5 to help differentiate units better.

KGB

[Pillager]

Not much to add to that explanation.

The siege vs wall bonus works this way already...except that having a siege bonus vs a lower/non-existent fortification bonus does not currently produce a -1 (which would make siege units more generally useful).

The ability to partially negate a bonus allows for low level troops with small bonuses that are useful but not overpowered (IE a skeleton with 2 strength and fear 1).

[kenc80]

so are we officially transitioning from War2 bonus to DLR bonus structure? Not that thats necessarily bad but just curious how this will work in B4.

For the record, I don't see how example E ends up as zero:

E) A Hero with +5 leadership and a Dragon with +2 morale face an Archon with +4 chaos and a Devil with +4 fear. The overall bonus is 0 (5-4 + 2-4, limited to -1)

Shouldnt the hero stack be -2?

[KGB]

KenC,

Not officially transitioning to anything other than renaming +X stack and -X stack to different names to make it clearer what they are. Especially the Dreadknights +1 stack when attacking bonus which is confusing a lot of players.

As for example E, the Hero is +5 and the Archon is +4. So 5-4=1. The Dragon is +2 and the Devil is +4. So 2-4=-2 which gets capped at -1. Overall you get 1-1=0.

Pillager,

(which would make siege units more generally useful).

Actually this never made a lot of sense to me. A Battering Ram would have almost no value in combat in the middle of the forest/hills/roads etc. A Ballistae might because it shoots bolts but Siege Towers, Rams etc would not so Fortify/Siege should be limited to 0 on the low side. Anyway these units will have more value in Beta4 with towers in play. Plus I believe they can be used now on ruins/temples since you get a +1 city bonus there now.

KGB

[kenc80]

As for example E, the Hero is +5 and the Archon is +4. So 5-4=1. The Dragon is +2 and the Devil is +4. So 2-4=-2 which gets capped at -1. Overall you get 1-1=0.

Ok is that a rule currently in place, that no stack can go below -1?

[Pillager]

KGB,

I suppose the whole siege -1 thing made more sense with the OG DLR units. Well, catapults make some sort of sense anyway (what with the rock lobbing)...and perhaps siege engines if they had some sort of artillery capability. Battering rams were not official DLR units, and were added later....and yes they would be absolutely useless in a field battle.

But, making sense is overrated anyway ...I think that having a consistent set of rules defining the interactions between abilities, is more valuable than perfect realism.

[KGB]

KenC80,

Ok is that a rule currently in place, that no stack can go below -1?

As far as I know it's not. It certainly wasn't in War2 or DLR (you can go as low as -3). The only reason it may be now is because the only negative bonus you can get is a -1 stack bonus from the Medusa (or a hero)

Pillager,

But, making sense is overrated anyway ...I think that having a consistent set of rules defining the interactions between abilities, is more valuable than perfect realism.

Your joking right?

Didn't you just finish writing several posts in another thread on *not* mixing fantasy genre's (different boat types, castles, units) together so that you could have a more realistic/sensible theme?

You can't have it both ways

KGB