Hero Revamp

[Pillager]

I think that the current hero system needs an overhaul...

Firstly, the hero 'level-up' window is a mess of abilities (most of which are useless), and it needs to streamlined and simplified.

Command, movement, strength, stack bonus, view range....these are the basics, keep these (but the prices could use some tweaking).

Special situational stack bonuses...ditch these. Maybe keep +1 attack and +1 defense, or make them hero class specific (IE only the dreadknight can buy +1 attack)

Special situational strength bonuses..ditch them all.

-1 stack...keep it, lower the price a bit (could be class specific).

Critical strike/critical stack...lump these into 10% chance increments (IE critical strike 1 would have a 10% chance of killing a unit, critical strike 5 would have 50%).

Learning...same as critical strike (learning 10 would be a 100% bonus).

Move bonuses....perhaps a two (or three) step general move bonus for heroes...'pathfinding' would be like the scout's ability (3 in any terrain), 'improved pathfinding' would improve this to 2 (in any terrain).... Perhaps even 'expert pathfinding' which would be 1 movement cost in any terrain.

I would also like to see some more (useful) options for heroes..such as... +1 wound, and +1 stack movement.

Lastly, I'd like to see some of the basic hero types...the icons of the fantasy genre. The warrior, the rogue/thief, the barbarian, the wizard/sorceress, the ranger. Perhaps with some special abilities available only to that class.

[KGB]

Pillager,

Command, movement, strength, stack bonus, view range....these are the basics, keep these (but the prices could use some tweaking).

-1 stack...keep it, lower the price a bit (could be class specific).

Agreed.

Special situational strength bonuses..ditch them all.

Please leave the anti-air bonus in addition to the +1 attack/+1 defend bonus. I don't care about +1 attack in various terrains but this one giving +3 vs fliers to all units in your stack is VERY useful because it is not duplicated by any other unit (like the Pegasi duplicating the +1 stack attack).

Move bonuses....perhaps a two (or three) step general move bonus for heroes...'pathfinding' would be like the scout's ability (3 in any terrain), 'improved pathfinding' would improve this to 2 (in any terrain).... Perhaps even 'expert pathfinding' which would be 1 movement cost in any terrain.

Great idea. Improved makes great sense. Expert seems a bit much.

Critical strike/critical stack...lump these into 10% chance increments (IE critical strike 1 would have a 10% chance of killing a unit, critical strike 5 would have 50%)

Learning...same as critical strike (learning 10 would be a 100% bonus).

10 points for +100% is too much for learning. 10 points for 25% is plenty. Critical strike I agree with but personal critical strike seems a waste unless it's 10 points for 50% (I great chance to kill 1 enemy unit before the fight starts).


I'd like to see the following additional skills added (which I mentioned at the end of Beta2 when Piranha was asking for suggestions for Beta4)

1) Flight (hero only, not stack). Make it 20 points and give it to the Valkyrie. That way she can fly over terrain/rivers etc in the early game to search ruins faster (and thus risk her life if she flies on her own) and/or aid several stacks quickly in heavy terrain. This skill would *always* make this hero vulnerable to the anti air defense skill.
2) Group Move (stack). I'd make +1 group move cost 7 points and change the individual +1 move to cost 4 points. That seems a better point cost.
3) Pillage. This would give extra gold from pillaging cities/looting ruins. Maybe 2% extra gold per point so 10 points gives an extra 20% gold.
4) Income. This would give extra gold from your cities as items in War2 did. Obviously you'll have such items in the game but there is no reason the heroes can't have this skill too and have it work in a cumulative manner. Maybe +2 gold per city for 7 points.
5) Medals. This would increase the medal chance (I know you don't have this yet but it can be for Beta4). Each hero can have a base medal chance to add to the chance of a medal. Then you can increase that by spending more points. Maybe 2% per point. A higher ranking in this value would be an excellent one to give the Paladin.
6) Engineering. This would decrease the cost of city wall upgrades. It works on an empire wide basis (so your hero doesn't have to be in the city itself) and is not cumulative using only the largest value on any hero (1 hero with 20% and another hero with 10% only gives 20%, not 30%). A 10% decrease in cost for 10 points. This skill also reduces the cost of rebuilding razed cities when you add that feature.
7) Production. Just like Engineering except it reduces the cost of buying new production in cities. DLR combines this + Engineering into 1 skill. You may want to do that as well if you think it doesn't make sense to separate them into 2 skills. Personally I would combine Engineering/Production.



The other revamp that needs to be done relates to how many points you get to spend. Currently it's always 10 points per level. But the XP needed per level rapidly increases making higher levels harder to get for the same points to spend. I'd like to see the points to spend increase at every level by 2 points. So at L2 you get 10 points, L3 = 12, L4 = 14, L5 = 16, L6 = 18 and so on. So at L6 you'd now have a total of 80 points instead of 60.

KGB

[Pillager]

KGB,

0 points for +100% is too much for learning. 10 points for 25% is plenty. Critical strike I agree with but personal critical strike seems a waste unless it's 10 points for 50% (I great chance to kill 1 enemy unit before the fight starts).

I wasn't saying that critical strike or learning should cost 1 point for 10%. I was suggesting that it would be more intuitive to have a system based around 10% increments. So, I would purchase 'Critical Strike 1' (which would mean 10% kill chance) for x amount of hero points, instead of buying the percentage points in a piecemeal fashion.

I think that lowering the number of points a hero is awarded per level would make the system less fiddly and more newbie-friendly. Perhaps a hero could get only 2 points/level up to level 5 and then receive 3 points per level to level 10. If that was the case, +2 movement could cost a single point, so could +1 strength, and +1 command could cost 5 points. That seems way simpler to me.

[Jeremy]

I actually really like the ability to buy things for 1 point, or just a few points.

It's frustrating to have points, and have nothing worthwhile to do with them. For some of my hero's, I've enjoying giving a bit of critical stack here, a bit there.

[Pillager]

In the advancement system I was proposing, all costs would be reduced, and so would the number of points a hero gets at each level. 1 point would buy +1 movement or strength, so there wouldn't be any stray points hanging around uselessly.

Buying 1% critical strike just seems unnecessarily fiddly.

[LPhillips]

The point value overhaul seems like a nice idea.
And buying 1% of anything certainly is unnecessarily fiddly. I'd like to offer my verbal/written support to many of these ideas to make heroes more entertaining.

One major key to a great game is to have plenty of creative options, without requiring intense micromanagement if players prefer not to do it. So having 8 units with partially overlapping abilities, for instance, is not a waste but an increased opportunity for strategy and variety. If you find that no one uses a feature (like buying hero bonuses for terrain) then I would suggest looking for ways to make the feature more viable, not eliminating it.

It would be nice to increase the opportunities for complex strategy and planning in the game, without requiring it from those who just want to smash things.

[Pillager]

But....

Having too many options could make the game unaccessible to new players....especially if many of those options are somewhat useless or highly situational.

Unit terrain bonuses play a big roll in Warbarons.... but terrain bonuses on heroes present all sorts of issues. Even if you made them cheap enough to be worth buying, how do you balance them? Their value is directly tied to the terrain distribution of the map being used.

There have been many suggestions for new hero powers. Most of them would be more useful and flavorful than bonuses in terrains...so implementing some of those powers and eliminating some of the chaff would be (IMO) a net gain.

[LPhillips]

But....

Having too many options could make the game unaccessible to new players....especially if many of those options are somewhat useless or highly situational.

Unit terrain bonuses play a big roll in Warbarons.... but terrain bonuses on heroes present all sorts of issues. Even if you made them cheap enough to be worth buying, how do you balance them? Their value is directly tied to the terrain distribution of the map being used.

There have been many suggestions for new hero powers. Most of them would be more useful and flavorful than bonuses in terrains...so implementing some of those powers and eliminating some of the chaff would be (IMO) a net gain.

"without requiring intense micromanagement if players prefer not to do it." -me
No, it won't make the game inaccessible to new players unless it's badly implemented. I have some suggestions for the purchase screen for hero powers as well, if they ask for suggestions. It could be very user-friendly. It will need to be organized carefully at some point to be accessible.

Terrain bonuses can never be unbalanced when players have a choice about them, because all players are using the same map. It's simply a matter of the player's decisions.

"Most of them would be more useful and flavorful..." You're right. But I don't see any of the current options as chaff. They just need to be refined.

[Pillager]

So, a bonus in open should be more expensive than a bonus in hills..right? But what about maps that have many hills and not much open? Those are the balancing issues I was referring to....balancing the terrain bonuses vs the other skills, when their value is totally defined by the map being played.

But, that is a minor issue. The bigger issue is the situational value of terrain bonuses. Who wants to waste their hero points on a skill that will rarely come into play? The only times I would ever bother giving my hero a +stack in hills would be before a specific battle in the hills, the outcome of which was uncertain. But, I have never done this (the situation hasn't come up) and I may never need to....the power is simply too situational.

The argument could be made that the terrain stack bonuses are too expensive...but making them cheap would introduce a range of cheesy tactics that would add nothing positive to the game.

So, do you take terrain bonuses as hero advancements? Do you find them to be a valuable addition to a hero's arsenal? I really hope you do, otherwise you are just blowing a rather large amount of hot air.

[LPhillips]

Now, now, you're getting belligerent. That's not appropriate.

I said that it would be preferable to rework features rather than removing them. I'm not a big advocate of the terrain bonuses, obviously. I don't think anyone is. But we don't have to throw them out if we can find a better implementation. And it's not a player-to-player balance issue. I can see it being an issue with balancing hero strength vs other units, and that is a big point. I think I misunderstood you when you spoke of "balance".

Don't ever take my comments as an argument or partisan attack. I'm just trying to help improve the game.