new units

[LPhillips]

Actually, I think the Crusader should be an offensive infantry unit. There are plenty of viable defender infantry units.

It would really be useful as a one turn 2 STR unit that gets +3 on attack. That would make it a favorite for quick expansion. Or even a banding bonus on attack. +1 per Crusader, you could really slam into those heavily defended cities. 7 with a catapult would really hit hard. It would become necessary for players to move out and intercept bands of Crusaders before they could inflict high damage by attacking. 300-350 gold, practically useless for city defense, but brutal on the assault. 14 move?

I see this as adding a huge level of strategy to raids and assaults. I would like to see some fast-movers instated with a banding bonus as well, actually. Heavy Cavalry on steroids.

[KGB]

A 1 turn 5 strength unit when attacking would be insanely powerful. Overwhelmingly so since you could build gobs of these units and just send them in hordes. If they get killed it's no big deal because you build them so fast.

The game already has fast expansion units (bats, lt cavalry) since they can easily bless + group with a Pegasi. I expand like wildfire with bats/lt cavalry and have little trouble taking any neutral city that contains a single defender.

The Crusader would have made a great unit to get the +1 stack bonus but the Pegasi already that job. It would also make a great unit to combat evil (2 turns, 5 strength, +1 stack bonus when enemy stack contains an evil unit), but the game doesn't have a good/evil designation for units yet (Orc/wolfrider/medusa/demon/devil etc).

So really unless it's going to become the 4th hero it is probably best suited as a unit to help a hero search ruins. Maybe it can give a bonus to undead lore and XP rewards from quests.

KGB

[Pillager]

I like the bonus to attack for crusaders...but they are almost certainly too good if implemented the way LPhillips described.

If a crusader just boosted a hero's undead lore, it would be a valuable unit to go ruin hunting with...even if it didn't actually enter the ruin with the hero.

If the 'ruin helper' role isn't feasible...

KGB's bonus vs evil is a fun idea. Maybe you could work it so that the crusader gets a strength bonus equal to the production time of the unit it is fighting -1. So, no bonus vs 1 turners...+1 vs 2 turners..+3 vs 4 turners, etc. Call it 'Valiant' or something similar. He'd be terrible at fighting rank and file, but great (+4) vs the biggest monsters.

[kenc80]

fascinating debate.

I like the idea of diversified terrain bonuses. IE the mammoth & yeti getting at least +2 in snow. This would make the stack building decision process kinda fun and involved for certain battles.

Also, to clarify...are you saying the kraken/serpent can attack coastal cities without ports? Thats super cool.

Also, what about elves having a snow move bonus...not giving that to stack like they do in woods but just personally. Remember the classic LOTR scene where they show legolas walking on top of the snow...

Just my two cents

[KGB]

Maybe you could work it so that the crusader gets a strength bonus equal to the production time of the unit it is fighting -1. So, no bonus vs 1 turners...+1 vs 2 turners..+3 vs 4 turners, etc. Call it 'Valiant' or something similar. He'd be terrible at fighting rank and file, but great (+4) vs the biggest monsters.

I'd call this a Berzerker/Rage power. Doesn't have to be just against evil units. It should be against any unit you get the bonus Pillager described. It's far easier than designating good/evil/neutral units too. So 2 turns, 4 strength, Berzerker/Rage power as described above.

Also, to clarify...are you saying the kraken/serpent can attack coastal cities without ports? Thats super cool.

Correct. They could attack any city next to the water. It's not overpowering because they move so slow on land (5 moves including on roads) that even if they take a city they won't be moving very far afterward. Since it only applies to that unit it means you can't bring a stack of normal land units with you. So they end up as perfect coastal raiding units.

Plus it gives the War2/DLR concept of attacking cities from water which is sorely missing right now.

I like the idea of diversified terrain bonuses. IE the mammoth & yeti getting at least +2 in snow. This would make the stack building decision process kinda fun and involved for certain battles.

Me too. One thing I keep forgetting to mention. This is mostly for SnotlinG since he is the map keeper. But random maps should now have some basic rules applied when generating random production. In other words I don't ever expect to see Yeti/Mammoths in Desert/Lava terrain or Scorpions/Giant worms in the Snow. So each unit should be assigned a basic Y/N to appear in a terrain type. So for say an Elf it might be (Forest - Y, Open - Y, Hills - Y, Swamp - N, Desert - N, Snow - Y, Lava - N). Some units could obviously appear anywhere, others in more limited places.

KGB

[Pillager]

I'd call this a Berzerker/Rage power. Doesn't have to be just against evil units. It should be against any unit you get the bonus Pillager described. It's far easier than designating good/evil/neutral units too. So 2 turns, 4 strength, Berzerker/Rage power as described above.

Exactly, rage seems like a good name for this.

Having a city's surrounding terrain affect random production is an excellent idea. I'm tired of finding cities full of swamp-dwelling dwarves, who can barely get out of the city gates. Finding a kraken city in the middle of a vast plain seems like it would be even more tragic.

[Pillager]

Another fun way to implement 'Rage' would be to give the raging unit +1 for each enemy outnumbering unit. So, a single unit with rage vs an 8 stack would get +7 strength. But, if the raging unit was stacked with 3 units, before attacking the enemy 8 stack, the rager would get only +4 strength. This might be somewhat too powerful, but you could introduce a numerical limit (IE rage 3)..meaning that the unit couldn't get a higher bonus (in this case 3).

Not sure if this one would be a great fit for the crusader, it would be perfect for a berzerker unit....or perhaps even the minotaur. You could send them in alone before the main attack to cause some havoc.

[LPhillips]

The whole "rage" thing sounds like fun, provided there are counters (cancel unit bonus, etc).

I like the idea of a unit that gets a bonus when attacking high-powered units. Crusader might be perfect for that.

We have 4 STR 1-turners. I don't see why 5 STR on attack and 2 on defense is remotely overpowered. If it's an issue of early game, then make them expensive. But a unit that is powerful on offense and weak on defense would add a very nice opportunity for strategy.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

Those 4 strength units only move 8 squares that's why they are OK. So if the Crusader only moves 8 or 10 then yeah, he could be a 5 strength when attacking unit. Otherwise if he moves 12 or 14 then he'll always be attacking since almost no unit will ever reach him before he reaches them.

I'm personally not too keen on introducing too many +X when attacking (or defending) type units. Especially on 1 turn units which can be mass produced. Doing so obviously adds a lot of importance to whether you are the attacker or defender in the game compared to all other skills which function equally whether you are attacking or defending (basically trying not to increase the disadvantage when it's not your turn).

The 3 turn elemental is OK because he's unique and you don't build/see a lot of them.

If you think the game needs a unit to help with conquering neutrals then a power than adds +X when attacking neutrals would be fine because that doesn't affect player-vs-player. Such a unit could be cheap (150, 12 moves) since it's value diminishes rapidly once neutrals are conquered and then it is basically just lt infantry.

KGB

[kenc80]

Ok this is all really fascinating and sounds really fun...but here is my quick concern.

We're now talking snow, desert, kraken attacking from water to coastal cities, rage, ambush, ruin helping units, +x to attack, towers...are we ramping up the complexity too much?

If I was a noob at this game, I'm going to get absolutely slaughtered in an FFA and be bewildered when I am. my boats cant attack, how did his stack just do that? I thought those were strength 2 but wait, his flying hero just attacked my city with flying mammoths with the entire stack at +12 strength?! holy shit what just happened!?

I love the complexity but I think we need to be a bit careful. one reason I never really progressed along to DLR and some of the later iterations of Warlords was because of the complexity. I liked being able to come in and play. In beta 3 and especially beta 2 I felt like it was very easy for players to come in and get a hang of the game and fight.

I was recently chatting with KGB and he was telling me about a player that we have both independently played that had really improved. The first time we played this guy we both just massacred him and now he is/was really holding his own in a 1v1 game with KGB..I saw because I happened to sit the game for KGB one weekend. This guy had really improved. I was really impressed.

Would he have been able to improve so fast if advanced players were pounding him with flying heroes getting group stack movement bonuses and major attack bonuses? We were talking earlier about elephants or some such unit giving group move bonuses. If I'm a new player holding my own and all of a sudden a flying hero comes out of nowhere and absolutely massacres four of my back castles I'm going to be seriously discouraged. Maybe thats part of the game. Maybe most of the players are beginners.

I know I know, its no fun to say that but I feel its at least worth mentioning. complexity equals a tough ramp up time. Its why I always liked war2 over say civilization, just a little easier to grasp. Maybe I'm just a low functioning idiot but well...just my two cents.

PS I personally am in favor and looking forward to the added complexity of the next beta but I feel like mentioning this. I dont want to lose potential players. Now dont get me wrong, its fun to play against the best players out there...but I just dont want to lose noobs over too much complexity...maybe thats an unfounded concern. maybe beginners will be attracted to that stuff.