Magic System Ideas

[Pillager]

So, we have been discussing the use of scrolls on another thread (hero revamp)...and I will jump into that again here.

What if scrolls had a recharge time instead of limited charges. A 'summon elemental' scroll (for instance) might have a recharge time of 3. The scroll would be used by placing it in a hero's scroll item box (in the inspect hero window). The elemental would spawn immediately, but the scroll would be stuck in the box for 3 turns...so no spell casting for that hero until the scroll cools down and can be removed. Enchantments could have a recharge time of zero, meaning that they could be taken in and out of the aforementioned box as often as a player wished. the enchantment would be in effect as long as the scroll was left in the box.

So, a hero that summons a demon can't cast another spell for four turns...she couldn't use her 'chain lightning' spell until the demon scroll cools down.

perhaps spell casting heroes could use skill/ability points to create certain scrolls from a class specific list...priests could scribe blessing scrolls...wizards could do fireballs etc. Other scrolls/wands/orbs could be found as rewards in ruins.

[Pillager]

I have had a few different ideas for a Warbarons magic system. The thing is..Warbarons is already a fun game, a hugely complex or over-powered magic system isn't really needed, and may take away from the fun and simplicity of the current game.

So, I've been trying to think of a very simple way to integrate magic into the game without changing or adding more than what is necessary. I have come up with the following....

Magical Heroes! Yay!

What differentiates a magical hero from a standard hero? Magical heroes don't have skill points, they have devoted their lives to studying arcane secrets or attaining communion with the divine..they have no other life skills and couldn't fry an egg without divine intervention or magical powers. Instead of skill points they get magic/spell points.

What differentiates spell points from skill points? Well they are very similar, and are both used in (almost) exactly the same way. When a magic user goes up a level they get an additional spell point to distribute amongst their spells like a normal hero does with his skills. The major difference is that spell points aren't assigned forever. They can be redistributed once each turn.

How are spell points redistributed? This is done by opening up your inspect hero window, you can take any spell points out of the spells you have assigned them to and put them wherever you feel serves your hero's needs for the turn. Maybe you need to see the area around you, so you put all your points into view range..or you need to go fast, so you put them all into stack move bonus. Once you are done fiddling and press the ok button your 'spells' have been cast, and are set for the turn.

Wait, isn't a magical hero just better than a normal hero? Magical heroes will be more flexible, but they could also have some dis-advantages. Maybe they don't start with a command bonus, or they start with a command bonus, but have a hard time raising it (wizards are often not the most inspiring generals). And/or they could have magic item use limitations and can't use magic armor/shields/weapons. They could also be more expensive..IE they show up separately and demand more cash to join you. Any combination of these disadvantages could probably work.

On top of the spell point vs skill point difference. Magical heroes would be distinct because their spells (unique to their class) might be different than a normal hero's skills. A wizard might be able to put spell points into 'summon elemental', 'teleport' or 'fly army', 'invisibility' and 'battle magic'. A priest could put points into 'bless', and 'walk on water(stack)'.

How would these strange spells work with this system? Things like stack bonuses are easy, spell points assigned to them would grant a persistent benefit, the benefit would be lost when you reassign the points. With Instant effects like 'summon elemental', points would accrue over time....say an elemental takes 15 spell points to summon (more than your wizard has) if he puts 5 spell points into summon elemental, the spell will be ready to cast in 3 turns. Teleport and other instant effects could work in the same way.

I'd like some feedback, but please realize that this is a pretty newly-formed idea...I'm sure that fault can be found with it. Criticism is fine, just counterbalance it with a suggestion about how either this mechanic could be improved..or propose a magic system you think would be superior. Thanks muchly.

[LPhillips]

The scroll system does sound viable. I do like the idea of heroes having spell slots that can be purchased and whose number may be limited or nonexistent for non-magical heroes. Whether spells are learned or found, they should probably be limited to the hero that owns/knows them. Spells being stuck in slots sounds good too. It simplifies everything by removing a need for magical power as a resource/commodity, and leaves it as a hero attribute.

I don't like the idea of spells that are rearranged or changed at the beginning of every turn. That sounds incredibly cheesy. Maybe at the *end* of the turn, but even that sounds off to me.

I really think Pillager is on to something with his idea of spells in slots. As to what the spells might be, that's another matter. And heroes could still purchase spells and enchantments. A physical item like the coveted Scroll of Teleport 5 Spaces being passed from your magic-impaired Warrior who found it to your Mage who can cast it every turn would be neat. A Mage might have 5 mana per turn with a pool cap of 20, and two spell slots. He might set a permanent enchantment for +5 stack move at -3 mana per turn, then pop battle spells in the second slot.

This would also vastly simplify the balance options offered. There's no need to adjust the equipment slots on heroes; some are simply more magical or less magical than others. You can balance it all by adjusting the cost of abilities. Command costs only 2 points to Warrior, 3 to Paladin, 4 to Mage, a mana increase per turn of +1 is 1 point for mages, 2 for Paladins (and other semi-magical heroes), 3 points for Warrior (who starts from 0). Etc.
Eventually, little spells like a movement boost become common for a Mage, and he may cast 4 spells in a turn. While a Warrior may never be able to cast Fly Stack for a turn at the cost of 20 mana, because it would be cost-prohibitive to raise his mana pool cap to 20. And 5 points is almost too much to buy a single spell slot, much less another at 7, so he'd never cast 2 spells per turn.

Balance is very easy with this method, and it's not difficult for a newbie to pick up. "I have one spell slot, I can cast 1 spell. I have 11/20 Mana, and I get 5 more next turn. Magic Wind costs 15 mana, and Quicksteps costs 8. I can either cast Quicksteps and outrun them now, or take the risk of waiting one more turn to fly out of here."
"I have two spell slots now, same situation. One is occupied with Heightened Awareness, which gives me +1 view per turn at the cost of 2 mana. I need to cancel that or I will not have enough mana at the start of next turn to escape. Or, I can use this ability point I've been saving to buy +1 mana income for next turn."

[Pillager]

Just to clarify, I have proposed some ideas for two separate magic systems. One involving special items (scrolls). And another involving modified skill points (spell points).

Lphillips...

Most of your comment were about scrolls, so I'll respond to the one comment you made about the 'spell point' system first...

I don't like the idea of spells that are rearranged or changed at the beginning of every turn. That sounds incredibly cheesy. Maybe at the *end* of the turn, but even that sounds off to me.

I think you are right about this, it would probably allow too much flexibility. However, some restrictions could be imposed. Perhaps the points you take out of spells can't be put into new spells until the following turn. So a wizard expecting a battle might take points out of Travel and summon, but the points couldn't be added to battle magic that turn..they would, however, be available for redistribution on the next turn. This might encourage a wizard/priestess to keep a few spell points in the 'available' pool as an insurance policy.

A Mage might have 5 mana per turn with a pool cap of 20, and two spell slots. He might set a permanent enchantment for +5 stack move at -3 mana per turn, then pop battle spells in the second slot.

Having mana income is something I would like to avoid (if possible). Having mana flow and max mana for each hero seems fiddly to me.

My 'scroll recharge time' idea, was designed to replace mana income. Say you are a paladin and somehow you got your hands on a 'summon archon' scroll (with a recharge time of 5). The paladin would likely only have a single magic box...so only one spell at a time. He casts summon archon by placing the scroll in his magic box...and an archon appears in his stack! YAY! However, his scroll box has now gone all grey and the scroll is stuck there, and a number 5 is displayed in the box. That paladin can't cast another spell for 5 turns...but hey he got an archon out of it, so its pretty sweet.

Now, example 2...The paladin gives the scroll to a high level priestess. The priestess has a couple magic boxes, so when she summons that archon..she'll still have another box to cast spells with. On top of that the priestess has the 'fastcast 1' skill..reducing scroll recharge time by one..so now only one of her boxes will be frozen and only for 4 turns.

As you can see, this mechanic (sort of) does what mana income would do...but In a more visual (and I think more intuitive) way.

[LPhillips]

I was seeing the scrolls as a "right" to cast a spell, rather than using them as the spells themselves. In the end, it's the same thing. However: Having a mana income/flow for a hero allows persistent spells to reduce the flow or put it in the negative. Also, a mana pool limits the power of spells that a specific hero can cast and limits the frequency of spellcasting. I think it's a more flexible and balanced system.

[Pillager]

Hmmm...

I do think that (with a good layout) mana income and expense could be kept track of fairly easily. And each Hero having his own mana pool has some advantages, and is (IMO) just as easy as having them all sharing the same pool.

.....But, if scrolls/spells had recharge times and level requirements, they would impose most of the same limitations, and without the fuss of balancing your hero's 'mana budget'.

Having a mana income can lead to some balance issues. For instance, in DLR, if you got lucky and found a large number of mana crystals, you could end up summoning a huge amount of units/turn with a single hero. I think we should try to avoid repeating this mistake.

[jiipee]

just my two cents: i don't really like magic points or similar brought to warlords. I was a big fan of warlords I and II and those were pretty straight forward games and easy to for newbies but not so easy to master. I'd like to keep the game that way

[LPhillips]

Magic will probably make some kind of entry eventually. But I might be more pleased by excluding it, myself.

It's fun to discuss possibilities either way!

Pillager, the problem in DLR was the whole mana crystal concept in the first place. No one has proposed that here. Mana gain and cap would be intrinsic, so there could be no balance issues there. The only balance issue would be adjusting the power of magic itself.

[Pillager]

Jiipee,

There will likely be a magic system, but I'd like it to be fairly straight forward, and as intuitive as possible.

Lphillips, I think there could be balance issues surrounding mana income..if players can buy mana income upgrades for heroes, it could get out of hand..much like the mana crystals.

[LPhillips]

No, because unlike Mana Crystals they can't buy/find a theoretically unlimited amount. It's based on the ability point system, so even if they put every single point into mana income, they wouldn't be able to unbalance the system.