Magic System Ideas

[KGB]

Jiipee,

I think it would be ideal if both quests and magic were options you checked at game creation time.

DLR had the ability to turn off both and though I rarely did, I can remember some tournament games and other special occasions when one or both of those was turned off.

Having the ability to turn both off would allow for a 'beginner' settings game for players to learn the basics of units, heroes, ruins without being totally overwhelmed.

KGB

[Moonknight]

I agree with KGB, there should be the option to turn off "Magic" and "Quests". I might like the magic system, I might not, at least I'd have the option.

Pillager, I really like the idea of having magic specific heroes with 'spell skills' that only they can learn, like a Wizard or a Necromancer. I am always all for having heroes with 'unique' specialties. Obviously, all spells have to be 'non-combat' options.

I see the following options working somehow:
Bless stack : +1 Strength or +1 Hit Points...this could be Paladin or Priest specific, maybe you can only do this once every 10 turns or something?

Summon ally : could be 'good' (Pegasus, Unicorn, Archon, etc.) or 'bad' ('Minotaur, Devil, Demon, etc.) ally specific if we had both wizards and necromancers, I would like to only see 4 different types of allies to be summon (ones that won't make things too unbalanced), and each ally should cost different 'Spell points' to learn and cost different amounts of mana/scrolls (something simple like if you summon a unicorn, you can't do any spells for three turns, pegasus four turns, archon five turns, etc.).

Movement : A variety of movement bonuses/increases...I don't like transport, but if it was a temporarily stack movement of 32 or something, I see that working.

Ruin discovery : If we had hidden ruins as an option.

Remove Fog/See into Stacks: Maybe you can do this once every five turns...works well with a Ranger Hero

Track Item/Track Enemy Hero: Would let you see items in play (or maybe which ruin an item is located) or let you track an enemy hero if there is a powerful one that you want to hunt down...works well with a Ranger hero

Invisibility: Makes a stack invisible for up to 5 turns maybe, would not be able to cast any other spell until this is completed.

Balancing will be the issue, but the more I think about it the more I like it...

[Pillager]

Yeah, I like the 'magic' skills idea too.

I also like the idea of having a good and evil wizard type. Perhaps a neutral one as well. Something like Priestess/sorceress (good), wizard (neutral), necromancer(evil). The necromancer could be a good vehicle for bringing these new undead units (from the ruins) onto the battlefield.

Necromancy was a skill the DLR necromancer could buy, and it really added a lot to the hero. It had a 'spell like' flavor, but was essentially just another skill. Basically, after winning a battle with the necromancer hero, you got some undead troops, more troops and more powerful troops with more points in necromancy.

What if spells were instant effect skills? So, If you spend enough skill points to buy summoning 3 for your wizard, it is like saying that a mana income of 3 will be assigned to summon each turn. So, mana would build up (by +3) each turn. You wouldn't need to see the mana, you would just see the picture of the creature that your accrued mana would buy you. If you let your summoning mana build up for 5 turns (without casting it) you would have 15 mana, which might summon an elemental. If you had only left it for two turns (6 mana) that might only be worth a crow.

How would you cast? If you liked the look of the creature shown next to your summoning skill, you would click on it..and it would be cast! Then your summoning pool would reset to zero. Next turn you would have 3 mana built up (which would probably get you nothing).

The same concept could be applied to battle magic. The mana pool would build up at the rate of your battle magic skill. Battle bonuses of increasing power would become available....so 1-2 mana might give shield spell..which would be a +1 stack defence bonus, 3-4 mana could give Terror a -1 enemy stack bonus, 5-7 could give Frenzy a +2 stack attack bonus....you get the idea here. When you like what you see, you cast it by clicking on the picture/name. Your magical hero would get the bonus provided until the start of your next turn. The 'battle magic' mana pool would reset to 0...and the buildup would start all over again.

[LPhillips]

I think separate mana pools is confusing and unnecessary. But other than that, what you're proposing is the same model from the last page: a mana pool that slowly accrues mana each turn. Only you're suggesting that it be invisible and mysterious. Don't you think that would confuse people? I mean, mystery is fun, but that really sounds perplexing.

[Pillager]

No, I don't think it would be confusing or perplexing...well not very.

Maybe my explanation is poor. There aren't really 'mana pools' at all. If a player understood that putting points into summoning skill made his wizard a better summoner. And if he understood that he could summon the unit shown next to his skill and get it right now, or hold off for some more turns and get a better unit...then that player could functionally use the system. No muss, no fuss, no balancing the mana budget.

The same mechanic could be used for all sorts of instant effect spells. The progression could be linear, or it could be varied, or there could be no progression, just a charging up period before the spell is ready to cast.

I would add scrolls too... why not? Just make them one use items that cast a spell or summon a unit. Maybe only certain classes could use them.

Having class specific items would not fry anyone's brain. Its pretty standard fare in RPGs and fantasy computer games.

[LPhillips]

Actually, I would think scrolls as one-use findables would be usable by anyone. That's kind of the point, right? Anyone can read a scroll, and if you want some sort of excuse then the magic is already stored in the scroll, which also explains why it can only be used once.

I really would like to see the "slots" element implemented, limiting the total number of spells a hero can use simultaneously and in a given time period. Deadening out a slot for a couple of turns after a major spell is a great idea imo. No matter how you balance mana and casting.

[Moonknight]

Yeah, I think if we want it as simplistic as possible, we wouldn't have any mana or magic 'pool', anything a hero casts can come with a cool-down time-period with it (x amount of turns), and that hero wouldn't be able to cast anything until the cool-down expires.

If it was set up like this, then a scroll could be used even if the cool-down time period has not expired. I'm not sure if I'm sold on the scrolls idea, are you thinking they'd come in play through ruins or quests, and that would be the only thing you get (could be useful, or might not provide any initial benefits)? What if your only hero cannot do magic?

What if instead of calling it 'magic', each hero could learn a few special 'attributes' (probably can come up with a better name than this). This way the any hero could use a scroll (or maybe that needs to be called something else in this realm).

[Pillager]

Scrolls should probably be usable by all heroes...or maybe some heroes need to buy the ability 'literacy' (or 'read scroll') in order to use one.

I was kinda thinking that scrolls could be found as rewards in ruins.. Finding a summoning scroll is a lot like finding an ally. But, finding a 'summon elemental' scroll would have the advantage that you could summon the elemental when needed and not have to drag it along with you.

Still....if you are finding a one use scroll that provides a battle bonus as the sole reward in a ruin, then that bonus would need to be pretty good to offset its one-use-ness. Maybe one use scrolls should have oddball powers rather than typical item abilities....

Like...
'conjure magic tower'....creates a 0 upkeep tower with decent walls.
'prosperity'..doubles your income next turn. Or permanently doubles the income of the nearest city.
'Industry'...halves new production cost/ wall building costs (until the start of your next turn).
'command'..all your armies gain a +1 command bonus (until the start of your next turn).
'haste'..all your units get a move bonus.
'necromancy'..gain an undead unit each time you win any battle (until the start of your next turn).
'plague'...50% chance to kill each unit in nearest city.
'storm'..50% chance to kill each ship unit within x distance (even yours).

Moonknight,

I agree that cool downs are an easy way to go...charging up powers could work too. I think that keeping it simple is key.

I also think that magic/quest and that sort of thing should be optional when creating a game.

[KGB]

Can I ask what the fascination with scrolls is? I mean I don't ever expect Conan to be able to learn to read and even if he did, he wouldn't be able to cast a scroll. Either you need innate magic skill (Wizard) or a Divine link with your God (Priest).

Plus having scrolls with special powers like Pillager described adds a whole new level to the game. I'm personally against anything being in scrolls/magic system that isn't in regular unit / hero skills. It puts too much reliance on getting those magic items. Plus it means a large documented list of every scroll power in the Warpedia plus for those you aren't English first gamers it means explanations in other languages.

Instead, if you want to design a system around spells with recharge times and spell casting slots do something like:

Warrior Type Hero - 0 spell casting slots. Can't ever get any spell casting slots.
Paladin/Ranger Type Hero - 1 spell casting slot. Can get more slots at a high Ability point cost (say 30 points)
Wizard/Priest Type Hero - 2 spell casting slots. Can get more slots at a lower Ability point cost (say 20 points).

Now you have 3 classes of heroes with varying number of slots. You could get more slots when you level up if you instead put your points towards another slot instead of say command like Warrior types would do.

Spell casting heroes get their spells from their skill points. The spells they can get can be limited by hero type so that Priests get access to Bless for example and Wizards get access to Chain Lightning. Summoning type spells would be based on the hero so a Priest might get a Summon Archon while a Wizard might get a Summon Elemental. Heroes can pick what ever spell they want when they level up if they have the points for it and it fits their spell class. Weak spells that grant a bit more move can cost only a few points and strong spells a lot of points obviously.

Scrolls don't exist. Instead you have sages like War2/DLR. Sages can be found in ruins (obviously) and as a quest reward.

Sages teach a skill based on the hero type. For a Warrior a Sage might teach Command +1 or Strength +2 or Undead Lore +20 or 10% Engineering (cheaper upgrade/buying unit production cost). For a Wizard a sage might teach Chain Lightning. For a Priest it might be +1 strength Bless etc. Once taught the spell, the hero can freely use it. Sages can also teach spell casting heroes non-spell related things like Undead Lore / Engineering etc but primarily they should first and foremost teach spells (heavily weighted to that).

The advantage of sages is that in games with no magic they still have value because they can teach Warrior types some valuable skill. You also don't need to worry about scrolls in terms of carrying them around or limiting how many scrolls can be used in a turn (game balance) or documenting all the different scrolls that that game might have etc.

KGB

[Pillager]

KGB,

To be honest, I'm not all that invested in the scroll thing...don't care much at all. The only reason I was trying to work scrolls into my original system was because..when asked about a possible magic system, Piranha mentioned something about scrolls...so I used that as a launching point.

Still, I find it odd that you have such an issue with a fighter using a scroll, when you seem just fine with a wizard wearing enchanted plate mail and wielding the Axe of Slaying. Your clearly D&D derived sensibilities should be equally offended by this...no?

Anyway, trying to balance a one-use item vs a multi use item/gold/allies is somewhat tricky. It has to be powerful enough so that a player doesn't feel cheated when he finds one in a ruin...but not so powerful that it is inherently unbalancing. Not an impossible task, but a tricky one...not sure it is really worth the headache.

Your proposed system seems like a pretty decent one to me. I would add spell specific recharge times..but yeah seems fairly solid.

I like the sage idea. Maybe give a character that finds a sage two skill advancement options to choose from. Decisions like that are always fun.