Attacking and Movement

[KGB]

Here is an issue I keep meaning to bring up but always forget until I run into it (which I just did again).

To attack an enemy you need enough movement points to legally move to that square.

However the code that evaluates whether or not you can attack as a stack contains a bug. The bug is that the code doesn't evaluate on a unit by unit basis whether it's legal for all units but rather on a worst case maximum needed move basis. Let me give an example to illustrate that just happened in my game.

An enemy hero stack was located on the hills. I have a hero stack that I wanted to attack with. I checked the movement and if I separated out my fliers and ground units, both could reach the square next to the enemy with enough moves left to attack. So I separated out my hero + 3 Demons and flew next to the enemy. Then I moved my 2 Hv Cavalry back into my hero stack. At this point my hero + Demons had 2 moves left and my Cavalry had 6 moves left. So legally the game will let me attack with either stack individually. But when I group the units together it won't because it thinks I need 6 moves to attack. This isn't right as I should have been able to attack.

KGB

[LPhillips]

This is true. Also, there is another bug that allows fliers to move with ships for 1 movement point. I hover a dragon over my ships and it gets 1-cost moves over sea -- allowing a light infantry to boost my hero+fliers with ship movement.

By the way, doesn't it cost fliers 6 to step on Hills if grouped with ground units that cost 6?

All of the movement system needs a bit of an overhaul. It probably should be taken care of while you work on which units can grant movement bonuses to others. You will have to start calculating movement cost individually anyway when all units no longer move for the cost of the lowest-cost unit in the stack. I think you ought to disable fliers getting movement bonuses from other units, period. They should always cost 2 unless moving on roads. As a corollary, you need to have heroes use the cost of the lowest-cost unit in the stack when moving. This of course excludes units that can no longer grant movement bonuses to others, such as crows and (possibly?) dwarfs.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

I believe Beta4 is going to have individual move rates as SnotlinG has mentioned this in the development blog thread. This is to accommodate the Sea Serpent/Kraken units which will always take 5 moves to move on land and 2 to move in a swamp. So I mentioned this bug again so it can be addressed for Beta4 along with that change because I hope all units have individual move rates in Beta4, not just the Sea Serpent/Kraken.

Incidentally I too use the flier grouped with boat trick to move my fliers at a faster rate. In reality fliers SHOULD ALWAYS PAY 2 TO MOVE ON ALL TERRAIN (other than mountains where they pay 4) as they did in Warlords I. They should definitely not get road/city movement rates as I have yet to see birds flying over roads/cities to 'speed up' their journey That would keep fliers in check and ensure they always fly straight line paths. Then to balance things because they can never get a 1 move rate give +4 move to all fliers.

KGB

[LPhillips]

I thought about fliers getting 2 movement all the time, but I neglected to suggest it for one reason: Roads serve an important strategic purpose as a big part of map balance. Fliers will be out of balance if they have increased movement and don't benefit from roads. Their movement patterns will be even more different than other units, and they will even slow down stacks and heroes. It exasperates an existing problem with fliers by making them much more of a niche group. Their use as conventional forces deteriorates and they are left mainly as sneaky/backdoor units.

To partially satisfy logic while preserving game balance: Roads might allow faster movement because they're clearly marked (landmarks to fly by), always offer a safe landing (game logic dictates they don't make the journey in one march/flight), and are clear of all obstructions. Also, it doesn't make sense for heavy infantry or many other units to ever outrun fliers. By logic, fliers should always get 1 cost. But for game balance, they need to get 2 cost standard and 1 for roads.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

I'm completely confused by your idea of logic with regards to fliers. There is nothing about a road that would help fliers move. Otherwise birds would be using our freeways and cities to migrate around. So they should not be getting road movement rate. So I think your reasoning is backwards. The reason ground units move further on a road is because the marching is easier (walk along a road and then walk across even a reasonably open field like a cow pasture and you can easily travel twice as far in the same time) and flying still takes the same amount of energy (*LOTS* compared to marching).

If all fliers get the +4 move then Pegasi for example will move 22 or 11 squares. Currently only a Dragon moves 11 squares on non-road terrain. So other than roads, they will move further than any ground unit. On roads they will move a very reasonable distance (1 less than Hv Infantry which is the standard infantry unit). If you want to give +6 instead of +4 I won't quibble.

But they most definitely won't be a niche group nor will they straggle behind regular armies unless the entire map consists of roads.

KGB

[LPhillips]

Logically, fliers should get 1-cost movement on all terrain. I was trying to come up with a logical excuse to maintain the roads/non-roads movement for fliers for the sake of balance, but any excuse is going to be flimsy. Basically, it's important for game balance. Flight can be abused because it negates the effects of terrain/map features. What you have described does make sense, but it amplifies the balance issues already inherent with flight. What we have now allows a nice balance, but if you further reduce fliers' need to regard map features and simultaneously reward them with extra movement, their role will change. They will be a niche group in the sense that their niche will be evading all conventional armies and making the game a defense logistics nightmare.

That's basically it. We have to be very careful of features such as "levitate/fly stack" as well, or we'll see people easily moving their armies onto inaccessible terrain so that they're invulnerable during off turns. Flight is a difficult balance issue, and I for one don't want to overturn the status quo there. As stated, the thought did cross my mind that fliers should not get a bonus from roads. Logically speaking, however: Fliers should always move faster than all other units. That's just as ridiculous balance-wise because nothing could catch them.

[zorro]

Players hiding on inaccessible terrain could be easily solved by 'putting' them on the closest accessible tile at the end of their turn like it was in Lords of Magic. That should definitely be the case over mountain. (Downside was you could use that to get additional movement, just by moving far enough into inaccessible terrain to get placed on the other side at the end of the turn).

But I am pretty sure that bats dont survive 5 miles high, and so do most.

[SnotlinG]

Sorry for the late respons, but I have been out of town for a few days...

Does anyone have a game / turn where the "not able to attack with a grouped stack"-bug is present? I would like to have a look at it.

Also, even in beta3 the units should be paying their individual move-cost when moving. I understand it as you sometimes dont see this behaviour?
For example a flyer and a heavy infantry moving in Hills, the flyer should pay 2 and the heavy infantry should pay 6.
If grouped with a unit with a move-special ability, it is allowed to pay the lesser cost of course.

Movecost of 1 for fliers grouped with ships is not a bug, it is intended, as the fliers can land and rest on the ships while they are traveling

[LPhillips]

It feels like an exploit rather than a feature, but you're the creator so it's your choice

There is a definite bug with heroes on ships grouped with fliers. If you move a stack with a flier onto a dock, the hero will remain as a ship and not land. If you attempt to move him inland, the game will go out of sync (happened about half a dozen times when I was trying to get him inland). The only solution is to ungroup him and move him off the dock, then back on. Took me a few minutes to figure out what was happening!

[SnotlinG]

I know there are issues with heroes/fliers/ships moving on/off Anchors
This is fixed in beta4.

For now, the best work-around is, as you say, to move them one by one