Opponent's Gold

[LPhillips]

Pikemen are the exception to the rule, which is why I'm against debuffing their Open bonus. Their only advantage right now is that you can't afford to hit them carelessly while they're marching across Open terrain. I think they're fine as they are, cost and all. Debuffing them and lowering their cost won't see them built more; it will just make them a more useless unit that is still solely produced when it's free.

We will see many more two-turn units built in Beta4 because players will need to get rid of their extra gold. I believe it was Snotling who said hero offers will be changed as suggested, and I speculate he was referring to KGB's post. So now on (for instance) West Illuria, where you can be gaining 1200-1600 gold per turn after upkeep, you'll see players upping the quality of their city production during the turns they have to wait for a hero offer.

Giants could stand to have their cost upped and be +3 on Hills, which would give them a powerful niche and a distinctive advantage over Dwarfs. They'd still be inferior or equal to all other two-turn units in City battles and Open battles, which are 90% of battles on most maps. They'll also still have a maximum 10 strength before bless (if I understand the bonus system correctly).

[Pillager]

I don't think that pikemen are useless units. They are very powerful on certain maps (any map with a fair bit of water). Most ports are next to open terrain...so pikemen are great for creating a beach head on enemy soil. They are useful bridgeguards as well...they get +2 on bridges..so line a couple of pikemen across a bridge an let the boats try to break through.

Beta 4 will introduce the tower. Towers will give the terrain bonus of the area they occupy and a wall bonu8s..so pikemen will be ideal tower defenders.

I don't think the pikeman is a balanced unit..it is more of a bipolar unit...on some maps it dominates..on others it is not worth building (even if found for free).

[LPhillips]

I think your definition of a balanced unit is flawed. Of course it's more useful on some maps than others: ALL units are more useful on some maps than others.

Pikemen are "relatively useless". Qualifiers are important words in English
It's less useful than other units at virtually everything. It's more powerful than other one-turn units, but that is why it's slow and so expensive. The expense makes it "balanced", the slow speed makes it an almost exclusively defensive unit, and the high upkeep makes it less useful defensively than other one-turners. The only unbalancing feature is how free units are assigned, giving some people Pikemen and some Light Infantry in equally valued cities on otherwise balanced maps.

[KGB]

The only unbalancing feature is how free units are assigned, giving some people Pikemen and some Light Infantry in equally valued cities on otherwise balanced maps.

I could not have stated it better.

Neutrals should have a much different formula for assigning free production.

For example the average production setting should randomly chose either 500, 600, 700 or 800 gold (25% chance of each). Then randomly select 1-3 units for that city (33% chance of each). Then based on that, pick 1 and 2 turn units that add up to that value getting as close as possible. So if the game picked 800 gold and 1 unit it would select a minotaur (only choice). If it selected 700 gold and 2 units it could select a Pikeman + Hv Inf or a Giant + Lt Infantry (or scout/bat etc). In some cases (700 gold, 1 unit) you'd have to pick the largest possible unit that fit (a Giant or a Battering Ram I think are the same cost). The numbers don't have to add up exactly, just be close (within 50 gold). That way you always get at least 400 gold of value in an average city so there is some decent stuff there and not a single scout or bat while your opponent gets a Dwarf or Pikeman.

KGB

[Pillager]

If the pikeman is so useless..then why is a city that produces light inf so much worse?

[LPhillips]

$$$$$$

[Pillager]

$ eh?

So...is that money from plundering? Is that the major imbalance here? Or do you actually think the pikeman is useful..but overpriced?

And lphillips... I understand that a slower, stronger unit can be balanced against a faster quicker one...but that only goes so far....is a 1 turn, 8 strength, zero movement unit balanced? I think not. I think the bat is about as fast and maneuverable as a 1 turn unit should be allowed to be....and I also think 6 strength in open is too strong for a level one unit, period.

I think your definition of a balanced unit is flawed. Of course it's more useful on some maps than others: ALL units are more useful on some maps than others.

Heavy infantry are pretty generally useful on any map....bats too, and pegasi...then there are units that are slightly more valuable on certain map types and more so..and more so....at the extreme end of this trend is the pikeman...a great unit on watery maps (not hypothetical maps, but actual maps, frequently played) and a very poor unit on others.

[LPhillips]

"Watery maps" cancel out movement differences. That's part of their design. You'll have to live with that if you play them, and remember that it's intentional. Also, we're going to see a whole different naval system in the next beta, so any arguments revolving around water-based movement are doubly invalid at this time.

[Moonknight]

wow...this got off topic