1. Devil – stack cancel is the most important ability in the late stages of the game, when you got powerful heroes with –2 negative stack, dragons, medusas, pegasi, elephants etc. all over the map. +1 stack makes him not only the best defensive unit but also good attacking unit in any stage of the game.
2. Dragon – definetely best in the early stages of the game and second best in the late stages. Makes your stacks of HvI S5 which is enough to win most of the battles. Don’t keep him in the city, let him fly all over the map and help your stacks of weaker units to win battles.
3. Medusa – combine it with a dreadlord and some pikemen and you got slow but very powerful attacking-defending crew. Also a good ally to fight large stacks of enemy without a help of a hero.
4. Demon – his quality of being unaffected by city walls is a two-edged thing. Good for capturing cities in the early stages – but has to fight in the frontlines, otherwise it’s useless.
5. Wizard – a bit underrated unit. This is because it’s really weak when it comes with a hero – two wizards can’t be a difference makers almost in any stage of the game. But it’s a good thing to have them produced in a city and wait until you get a stack of them: they might be an unpleasant surprise when you manage to put them behind the frontlines.
6. Elemental – as someone on the chat said: crappy elemental. When attacking it is still weaker than a dragon plus doesn’t affect on the rest of the stack. Good only in the early stages – combine him with a dreadlord and put him on the frontline (fight order!) to win the grey castles.
7. Archon – way overrated. Useful only against heroes, and only against those who invested in command while most of the experienced players invest in negative stack.
8. Ghost – no comment.
allies - from the best to the worst
13 posts
• Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2
allies - from the best to the worst
by strach » Tue May 31, 2011 10:09 pm
- strach
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:31 pm
Re: allies - from the best to the worst
by KGB » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:16 pm
I rank allies by the stage of the game (early/mid/late) since what I want/take early is not what I want/take late:
Early Game (lots of neutrals/ruins remain, typically turns 1-20):
1) Dragon - Best early game ally due to flight, movement and the +2 stack bonus. Combine with bats to take gobs of cities or rush your opponent. Work best with a Valkyrie.
2) Demon - The Negate walls bonus combined with good movement and flight means these guys can easily capture most neutrals on their own including enemy cities with several defenders. They work especially well with Dreadlords.
3) Archon - The flight ability alone makes them good early allies because they fly heroes to ruins/cities etc. Also the cancel hero bonus means you can try for an early game hero battle to knock out an opponent because they'll get no hero bonus while you can get potentially +2 if you have a Dreadlord. Their poor movement rate is their only downside.
4) Devil - The stack bonus and good movement rate are key here. You can take a Paladin if you get this ally.
5) Elemental - The +3 attack bonus is especially handy against stronger neutrals (Minotaurs/Spiders etc). If you don't have strong neutrals they aren't useful to get.
6) Medusa - The negative stack bonus is all they have to offer which is more useful later in the game than early. They and the Elemental however do at least have Desert movement of 2 (which many players don't realize) so if you are on a desert map Medusa/Elemental are more valuable.
7) Wizard - Almost no value due to so many maps being loaded with water/heavy terrain negating all their move. On a more open map like Bullrun they are much more valuable (5th best) due to their movement rate allowing rush possibilities.
8) Ghost - A late game unit that has no value in the early game. If they had flight they'd jump past Wizards.
Mid Game (virtually no ruins/neutrals left, at war with 1 or more opponents, typically turns 15-30):
1) Dragon - Still the best due to the +2 stack bonus, flight and high movement rate.
2) Devil - The cancel stack bonus is starting to become more valuable. Then add in their own stack bonus and good movement rate.
3) Medusa - The negative stack bonus is starting to become more valuable. They still suffer from slow movement rate and are best utilized with Dreadlords if they are in a hero stack.
4) Demon - The Negate walls bonus combined with good movement and flight means these guys can fly on suicide raids with a Dreadlord or Pegasi (if you want more movement) and take enemy cities. If you totally lack flying allies for your heroes they are more valuable than a Medusa simply to get your heroes flying.
5) Archon - The flight ability is still useful as is the anti hero bonus. Their slow movement for a flier is their big downside.
6) Elemental - The +3 attack bonus is now harder to use. You must kill all enemy scouts or hide the elemental under units so the enemy doesn't see it. Otherwise they get attacked to prevent their +3 bonus from triggering.
7) Wizard - Almost no value other than anti-air against flying stacks again due to most maps having terrain that negates their high movement.
8) Ghost - A late game unit that has no value in the mid game. If they had flight they'd jump past Wizards.
Late Game (Several high level (6+) heroes + strong hero stacks in play on all sides, typically turns 30+):
1) Archon - Most valuable late game ally due to flight + cancel hero skill. Of course if you know your opponent has no high level heroes or did not take command at level up time then they drop to 4th most valuable. But if your opponent has a L10+ hero with high command this (and Ghosts) is about the only way to stop him. Also if you are on a map like West Illuria where thanks to endless gold players have 7-10 heroes then an Archon is again the most valuable since there are so many places for it to be used but if you are on a map with limited gold like Woodslandia where players may only have a 2-3 heroes then the Archons value diminishes.
2) Devil - The cancel stack bonus is now shining brightly. Then add in their own +1 stack bonus and good movement.
3) Dragon - Still valuable thanks to the +2 stack bonus, flight and high movement rate. A Dragon combined with blessed bats and/or Demons can devastate an enemies rear cities. That is their primary late game use.
4) Ghost - The most misunderstood unit in the game finally potentially has value. Ghosts are an insurance policy. You cash that policy if you've lost your best heroes and/or an super enemy hero stack is rampaging in your lands. They must be used in masses (4+) with Wolfriders. When used like that an 8 stack (4 Ghost, 4 Wolfriders) will kill 4-5 units regardless of how strong the other stack is and can potentially kill the entire stack. I've turned a couple of games around using Ghost stacks like that. If you are winning handily/have the best heroes/enemy has no super stacks then you don't need them.
5) Medusa - The negative stack bonus is still handy to have. They'd rank higher if they moved further and could travel with the better 2 and 3 turn units.
6) Demon - The Negate walls bonus isn't as useful late in the game since cities are often loaded with defenders / anti-air. Their only value is if your heroes have lost all their flying allies or you have a handy dragon to stack with them for a suicide raid.
7) Elemental - The +3 attack bonus continues to be hard to use. Combined with the slow movement rate they should only ever be taken if they arrive right on the front line and can be used immediately.
8) Wizard - Almost no value other than anti-air against flying stacks. They should never be taken late game.
KGB
Early Game (lots of neutrals/ruins remain, typically turns 1-20):
1) Dragon - Best early game ally due to flight, movement and the +2 stack bonus. Combine with bats to take gobs of cities or rush your opponent. Work best with a Valkyrie.
2) Demon - The Negate walls bonus combined with good movement and flight means these guys can easily capture most neutrals on their own including enemy cities with several defenders. They work especially well with Dreadlords.
3) Archon - The flight ability alone makes them good early allies because they fly heroes to ruins/cities etc. Also the cancel hero bonus means you can try for an early game hero battle to knock out an opponent because they'll get no hero bonus while you can get potentially +2 if you have a Dreadlord. Their poor movement rate is their only downside.
4) Devil - The stack bonus and good movement rate are key here. You can take a Paladin if you get this ally.
5) Elemental - The +3 attack bonus is especially handy against stronger neutrals (Minotaurs/Spiders etc). If you don't have strong neutrals they aren't useful to get.
6) Medusa - The negative stack bonus is all they have to offer which is more useful later in the game than early. They and the Elemental however do at least have Desert movement of 2 (which many players don't realize) so if you are on a desert map Medusa/Elemental are more valuable.
7) Wizard - Almost no value due to so many maps being loaded with water/heavy terrain negating all their move. On a more open map like Bullrun they are much more valuable (5th best) due to their movement rate allowing rush possibilities.
8) Ghost - A late game unit that has no value in the early game. If they had flight they'd jump past Wizards.
Mid Game (virtually no ruins/neutrals left, at war with 1 or more opponents, typically turns 15-30):
1) Dragon - Still the best due to the +2 stack bonus, flight and high movement rate.
2) Devil - The cancel stack bonus is starting to become more valuable. Then add in their own stack bonus and good movement rate.
3) Medusa - The negative stack bonus is starting to become more valuable. They still suffer from slow movement rate and are best utilized with Dreadlords if they are in a hero stack.
4) Demon - The Negate walls bonus combined with good movement and flight means these guys can fly on suicide raids with a Dreadlord or Pegasi (if you want more movement) and take enemy cities. If you totally lack flying allies for your heroes they are more valuable than a Medusa simply to get your heroes flying.
5) Archon - The flight ability is still useful as is the anti hero bonus. Their slow movement for a flier is their big downside.
6) Elemental - The +3 attack bonus is now harder to use. You must kill all enemy scouts or hide the elemental under units so the enemy doesn't see it. Otherwise they get attacked to prevent their +3 bonus from triggering.
7) Wizard - Almost no value other than anti-air against flying stacks again due to most maps having terrain that negates their high movement.
8) Ghost - A late game unit that has no value in the mid game. If they had flight they'd jump past Wizards.
Late Game (Several high level (6+) heroes + strong hero stacks in play on all sides, typically turns 30+):
1) Archon - Most valuable late game ally due to flight + cancel hero skill. Of course if you know your opponent has no high level heroes or did not take command at level up time then they drop to 4th most valuable. But if your opponent has a L10+ hero with high command this (and Ghosts) is about the only way to stop him. Also if you are on a map like West Illuria where thanks to endless gold players have 7-10 heroes then an Archon is again the most valuable since there are so many places for it to be used but if you are on a map with limited gold like Woodslandia where players may only have a 2-3 heroes then the Archons value diminishes.
2) Devil - The cancel stack bonus is now shining brightly. Then add in their own +1 stack bonus and good movement.
3) Dragon - Still valuable thanks to the +2 stack bonus, flight and high movement rate. A Dragon combined with blessed bats and/or Demons can devastate an enemies rear cities. That is their primary late game use.
4) Ghost - The most misunderstood unit in the game finally potentially has value. Ghosts are an insurance policy. You cash that policy if you've lost your best heroes and/or an super enemy hero stack is rampaging in your lands. They must be used in masses (4+) with Wolfriders. When used like that an 8 stack (4 Ghost, 4 Wolfriders) will kill 4-5 units regardless of how strong the other stack is and can potentially kill the entire stack. I've turned a couple of games around using Ghost stacks like that. If you are winning handily/have the best heroes/enemy has no super stacks then you don't need them.
5) Medusa - The negative stack bonus is still handy to have. They'd rank higher if they moved further and could travel with the better 2 and 3 turn units.
6) Demon - The Negate walls bonus isn't as useful late in the game since cities are often loaded with defenders / anti-air. Their only value is if your heroes have lost all their flying allies or you have a handy dragon to stack with them for a suicide raid.
7) Elemental - The +3 attack bonus continues to be hard to use. Combined with the slow movement rate they should only ever be taken if they arrive right on the front line and can be used immediately.
8) Wizard - Almost no value other than anti-air against flying stacks. They should never be taken late game.
KGB
- KGB
- Posts: 3030
- Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:06 am
Re: allies - from the best to the worst
by strach » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:52 pm
Writing my first post I was pretty sure that you will answer my post with some different opinions, but didn’t expect such a flood of words 
I guess it’s quite convenient to divide the game into three stages (like in chess: opening, middle game, end game): early development (fighting with neutrals), middle game (fighting with other players, eliminating the newbies and weaker players), late game (few players left, everyone has some strong heroes and a lot of armies). I have noticed that my rank is similar to yours assessment of the strength of allies in the middle game. Still I don’t understand why you rate Archon so high – I guess I had completely different experience – and never really used it – but that’s maybe because you have played more games than me. Interesting things you write about the Ghost – but the problem is – how do you get 4 Ghosts and 4 Wolfriders on the spot where the battle take place? I mean – do you produce them? Do you foresee that you might need them in 15 turns time? On maps such Wet Illuria when you have tons of gold and plenty of heroes offers I guess that’s possible, but on the 8K or Westeros (my 2 favorite maps) – how do I/m supposed to get them? And you said some harsh words about the Wizard. Do you really think they are such a ... (here some slang word for something useless). I used it sucessfully for exemple on 8K map (and other made that against me) - to invade someone kingdom and raze some cities. Got to take into account that it's a two turner.
I guess it’s quite convenient to divide the game into three stages (like in chess: opening, middle game, end game): early development (fighting with neutrals), middle game (fighting with other players, eliminating the newbies and weaker players), late game (few players left, everyone has some strong heroes and a lot of armies). I have noticed that my rank is similar to yours assessment of the strength of allies in the middle game. Still I don’t understand why you rate Archon so high – I guess I had completely different experience – and never really used it – but that’s maybe because you have played more games than me. Interesting things you write about the Ghost – but the problem is – how do you get 4 Ghosts and 4 Wolfriders on the spot where the battle take place? I mean – do you produce them? Do you foresee that you might need them in 15 turns time? On maps such Wet Illuria when you have tons of gold and plenty of heroes offers I guess that’s possible, but on the 8K or Westeros (my 2 favorite maps) – how do I/m supposed to get them? And you said some harsh words about the Wizard. Do you really think they are such a ... (here some slang word for something useless). I used it sucessfully for exemple on 8K map (and other made that against me) - to invade someone kingdom and raze some cities. Got to take into account that it's a two turner.- strach
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:31 pm
Re: allies - from the best to the worst
by KGB » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:53 pm
Strach,
I definitely take the stage of game into consideration when determining if I am taking certain allies. For example I always want Demons in the early part of a game and rarely if ever take them late game because units with bonus's are much more valuable then.
I've lost a few games where I didn't have an Archon and my enemy had a L10+ hero with Command +3/+4 + Dragons and other strong units. It was just impossible to stop a hero like that when all the units were getting a +5 bonus and it was worse when it was an all flying stack that I couldn't attack half the time when it was on mountains/over water etc. I would have traded half my armies for 1 Archon to kill that hero.
But in many games I have never needed one at all. It's really a situational ally. You either need it really badly or you don't need it at all. Devils and Dragons aren't like that because you can always make use of them.
I sometimes in the late game (never in the early and rarely in the middle game) take a hero offer with 3 Ghosts and produce Wolfriders to get an 8 stack. I do not pillage a Ghost city like many players do. So I get the production that way as they cost too much to produce (except on West Illuria as you noted). Most games I am not able to get this kind of stack because I don't get Ghosts as allies or I don't find a Ghost city. But I would definitely like to achieve this kind of stack in every game for the insurance policy it provides (for example if I lose an unlucky hero battle where I am 80% likely to win and my opponent suddenly has a L6+ hero). Once I start getting Ghost and Wolfriders I put them all together into 1 stack and have it waiting just behind the front lines in case it's needed. It definitely does not belong on the front lines since it's not a stack meant to be used against non-heroes.
I love the Wizard on Bullrun and 8K map. I wrote that it's the 5th best ally in the early game on those maps due to their movement. The ability to bless then speed past and raze enemy cites is awesome. The problem is those are almost the only 2 maps it has value on. Just about every other map has such hard terrain covering the entire map or so much water that the Wizard loses all value. So on other maps I'd rather pillage the Wizard for 1000 gold and build Pegasi for the +1 stack bonus.
The other problem is mid-late game it offers nothing but Anti-Air because by then it can't raze cities unless you have 8 of them together and even then you need an open map like Bullrun/8K. So there is no reason to accept Wizards as allies in mid-late game.
KGB
strach wrote:I guess it’s quite convenient to divide the game into three stages (like in chess: opening, middle game, end game): early development (fighting with neutrals), middle game (fighting with other players, eliminating the newbies and weaker players), late game (few players left, everyone has some strong heroes and a lot of armies).
I definitely take the stage of game into consideration when determining if I am taking certain allies. For example I always want Demons in the early part of a game and rarely if ever take them late game because units with bonus's are much more valuable then.
strach wrote:Still I don’t understand why you rate Archon so high – I guess I had completely different experience – and never really used it – but that’s maybe because you have played more games than me.
I've lost a few games where I didn't have an Archon and my enemy had a L10+ hero with Command +3/+4 + Dragons and other strong units. It was just impossible to stop a hero like that when all the units were getting a +5 bonus and it was worse when it was an all flying stack that I couldn't attack half the time when it was on mountains/over water etc. I would have traded half my armies for 1 Archon to kill that hero.
But in many games I have never needed one at all. It's really a situational ally. You either need it really badly or you don't need it at all. Devils and Dragons aren't like that because you can always make use of them.
strach wrote:Interesting things you write about the Ghost – but the problem is – how do you get 4 Ghosts and 4 Wolfriders on the spot where the battle take place? I mean – do you produce them? Do you foresee that you might need them in 15 turns time?
I sometimes in the late game (never in the early and rarely in the middle game) take a hero offer with 3 Ghosts and produce Wolfriders to get an 8 stack. I do not pillage a Ghost city like many players do. So I get the production that way as they cost too much to produce (except on West Illuria as you noted). Most games I am not able to get this kind of stack because I don't get Ghosts as allies or I don't find a Ghost city. But I would definitely like to achieve this kind of stack in every game for the insurance policy it provides (for example if I lose an unlucky hero battle where I am 80% likely to win and my opponent suddenly has a L6+ hero). Once I start getting Ghost and Wolfriders I put them all together into 1 stack and have it waiting just behind the front lines in case it's needed. It definitely does not belong on the front lines since it's not a stack meant to be used against non-heroes.
strach wrote:And you said some harsh words about the Wizard. Do you really think they are such a ... (here some slang word for something useless). I used it sucessfully for exemple on 8K map (and other made that against me) - to invade someone kingdom and raze some cities. Got to take into account that it's a two turner.
I love the Wizard on Bullrun and 8K map. I wrote that it's the 5th best ally in the early game on those maps due to their movement. The ability to bless then speed past and raze enemy cites is awesome. The problem is those are almost the only 2 maps it has value on. Just about every other map has such hard terrain covering the entire map or so much water that the Wizard loses all value. So on other maps I'd rather pillage the Wizard for 1000 gold and build Pegasi for the +1 stack bonus.
The other problem is mid-late game it offers nothing but Anti-Air because by then it can't raze cities unless you have 8 of them together and even then you need an open map like Bullrun/8K. So there is no reason to accept Wizards as allies in mid-late game.
KGB
- KGB
- Posts: 3030
- Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:06 am
Re: allies - from the best to the worst
by kenc80 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:02 pm
i think you guys forgot about the all-powerful unicorn!
- kenc80
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:16 pm
- Location: South Carolina, USA
Re: allies - from the best to the worst
by LichKing » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:39 pm
My ratings for units (not only allies), even if with beta4 everything will change:
Scout 4: rarely useful
Light Infantry 8: cheap to buy, cheap to maintain, not much weaker than a heavy infantry for town defense and attack, faster, and can let you save a lot of gold during the game. Good for preliminary strikes and sea control too.
Crow 7: excellent scouts, hero mobility (including saving his neck sometimes) and not much more.
Heavy Infantry 8: good all-purpose unit.
Orc 6: swamp movement and critical can come handy. If there's a lone strong unit and you have a couple of these and have nothing else to do, you can hope in a critical (if the winning chance get over 10%). Also against strong neutrals, in company of a hero, they should be put first in the fight order.
Light Cavalry 6: useful, but very high upkeep. To have a 1-2 towns producing them is ok, but if I don't need them I pillage them.
Elf 6: occasionally useful for anti-air, forest movement and bonus are welcome, but very situational. Good to pillage.
Dwarf 9: my second favorite unit. Hill movement is crazy, so is their strength for a 1 turn unit. Half the movement rate of giants, but move twice as faster on hills, where you use them. So it's a 4 STR 1-turn unit against a 5 STR 2-turns unit and the dwarf wins all the time.
Wolf Rider 8: my favorite 2-turns unit. Good all around and very low upkeep too, strength is a bit low but more than enough to make it dangerous when with heroes.
Pikeman 9: my favorite unit. Slow movement, but you can send them ahead on open terrain and they're not too likely to be attacked. Support for heroes and everything, best town defending unit (with dwarves), there's nothing they can't do, except moving fast and flying. They just need some additional preparations.
Giants 5: weak in comparison to dwarves. There are better units.
Heavy Cavalry 8: I never buy them, but I often find them and they're always useful. Weaker than pikemen, on pair with HI, but sometimes you need speed. The same comparison giants-dwarves is valid for HC-pikemen, but I find HC much more useful than giants.
Minotaur 6: I prefer them over spiders: faster, cheaper to maintain.
Battering Ram 6: catapults are better. If I find them ok, then I could even pass on buying catapults, but if I don't I'd buy the latter instead.
Spider 5: they're slow, so apt mainly to defend, not to attack, but: in a town with +1 strength walls they have 8 STR, two pikemen (or dwarves) have 2x5 STR (that becomes 9 vs 2x6 with a pegasus), that is better, and 2 pikemen cost the same upkeep, and are much cheaper to buy. Moreover pikemen have many other uses, and spiders can be weakened by unicorns in towns. If you can use them offensively with a hero, they're good, but it's hard with that low speed, and I prefer griffins for that.
Elephant 5: occasionally useful to protect a stack on open, but when you have dragons you don't need them.
Catapult 8: it's good to have them. To buy them is a bit of a waste, but sometimes a necessary investment.
Pegasus 9: good to have 1-2 towns producing them, worth to buy if I don't find any, even if dragons are usually my priority.
Elemental 6: they have their uses, they have more or less the same problem of spiders (slow speed), but can save you a lot of units when attacking, if you put them first in the fight order.
Griffin 7: good unit, even if I have a slight preference for demons. Maybe it's better to have them both, griffins are slightly better to defend and are a 3-turns unit, not 4.
Medusa 9: negative stack for a 3-turns unit, means I always buy them, if I don't find them. Good for everything, albeit slow. But there are many slow units, so you can stack them together.
Wizard 7: very useful as scouts and against dragons, if I can't find them I miss them and sometimes I'm tempted to buy them. Awful as ally in hero offers by the way, being a 2-turns unit.
Demon 8: a very strong unit, and I usually buy 1 or even 2 if I have spare money.
Ghost 6: it has its uses, and it's not terrible, being a 3-turns unit. Good for city defense with a lot of other units or for nasty tactics like the one described by KGB.
Unicorn ?: I'm not a fan of them, but I recognize they can be very useful at times. I never used really, since I always prefer other units.
Devil 9: imho cancel stack and +1 stack is a too strong combination. And they're rather fast too.
Archon 7: sometimes essential, sometimes not, but more often yes than not. I usually buy them.
Dragon 9: usually the first thing I buy if I have the money, and the sooner the better, but one is enough for me.
As for allies in hero offers, I prefer in order: dragons, devils, archons (these positions are interchangeable, depending on the units I already have), then demons, then the 3-turns units and lastly wizards. That is, I prefer them on the base of the number of turns needed to build them.
Also, I prefer to have a diversified army, instead of having tons of (expensive, above all LC) 1-turn units and nothing else. I'd say optimal for me is: 60-70% towns 1-turn units (LI, HI, pikemen and dwarves mostly, all of them), 10-20% 2-turns units (wolf riders, HC and minotaurs), 10-20% 3/4/5-turns units, with accent on 1-turn units early in the game, on stronger units later. To have stronger units can help you also by letting the adversaries underestimate you, since all they can see in statistics is the total number of armies.
Scout 4: rarely useful
Light Infantry 8: cheap to buy, cheap to maintain, not much weaker than a heavy infantry for town defense and attack, faster, and can let you save a lot of gold during the game. Good for preliminary strikes and sea control too.
Crow 7: excellent scouts, hero mobility (including saving his neck sometimes) and not much more.
Heavy Infantry 8: good all-purpose unit.
Orc 6: swamp movement and critical can come handy. If there's a lone strong unit and you have a couple of these and have nothing else to do, you can hope in a critical (if the winning chance get over 10%). Also against strong neutrals, in company of a hero, they should be put first in the fight order.
Light Cavalry 6: useful, but very high upkeep. To have a 1-2 towns producing them is ok, but if I don't need them I pillage them.
Elf 6: occasionally useful for anti-air, forest movement and bonus are welcome, but very situational. Good to pillage.
Dwarf 9: my second favorite unit. Hill movement is crazy, so is their strength for a 1 turn unit. Half the movement rate of giants, but move twice as faster on hills, where you use them. So it's a 4 STR 1-turn unit against a 5 STR 2-turns unit and the dwarf wins all the time.
Wolf Rider 8: my favorite 2-turns unit. Good all around and very low upkeep too, strength is a bit low but more than enough to make it dangerous when with heroes.
Pikeman 9: my favorite unit. Slow movement, but you can send them ahead on open terrain and they're not too likely to be attacked. Support for heroes and everything, best town defending unit (with dwarves), there's nothing they can't do, except moving fast and flying. They just need some additional preparations.
Giants 5: weak in comparison to dwarves. There are better units.
Heavy Cavalry 8: I never buy them, but I often find them and they're always useful. Weaker than pikemen, on pair with HI, but sometimes you need speed. The same comparison giants-dwarves is valid for HC-pikemen, but I find HC much more useful than giants.
Minotaur 6: I prefer them over spiders: faster, cheaper to maintain.
Battering Ram 6: catapults are better. If I find them ok, then I could even pass on buying catapults, but if I don't I'd buy the latter instead.
Spider 5: they're slow, so apt mainly to defend, not to attack, but: in a town with +1 strength walls they have 8 STR, two pikemen (or dwarves) have 2x5 STR (that becomes 9 vs 2x6 with a pegasus), that is better, and 2 pikemen cost the same upkeep, and are much cheaper to buy. Moreover pikemen have many other uses, and spiders can be weakened by unicorns in towns. If you can use them offensively with a hero, they're good, but it's hard with that low speed, and I prefer griffins for that.
Elephant 5: occasionally useful to protect a stack on open, but when you have dragons you don't need them.
Catapult 8: it's good to have them. To buy them is a bit of a waste, but sometimes a necessary investment.
Pegasus 9: good to have 1-2 towns producing them, worth to buy if I don't find any, even if dragons are usually my priority.
Elemental 6: they have their uses, they have more or less the same problem of spiders (slow speed), but can save you a lot of units when attacking, if you put them first in the fight order.
Griffin 7: good unit, even if I have a slight preference for demons. Maybe it's better to have them both, griffins are slightly better to defend and are a 3-turns unit, not 4.
Medusa 9: negative stack for a 3-turns unit, means I always buy them, if I don't find them. Good for everything, albeit slow. But there are many slow units, so you can stack them together.
Wizard 7: very useful as scouts and against dragons, if I can't find them I miss them and sometimes I'm tempted to buy them. Awful as ally in hero offers by the way, being a 2-turns unit.
Demon 8: a very strong unit, and I usually buy 1 or even 2 if I have spare money.
Ghost 6: it has its uses, and it's not terrible, being a 3-turns unit. Good for city defense with a lot of other units or for nasty tactics like the one described by KGB.
Unicorn ?: I'm not a fan of them, but I recognize they can be very useful at times. I never used really, since I always prefer other units.
Devil 9: imho cancel stack and +1 stack is a too strong combination. And they're rather fast too.
Archon 7: sometimes essential, sometimes not, but more often yes than not. I usually buy them.
Dragon 9: usually the first thing I buy if I have the money, and the sooner the better, but one is enough for me.
As for allies in hero offers, I prefer in order: dragons, devils, archons (these positions are interchangeable, depending on the units I already have), then demons, then the 3-turns units and lastly wizards. That is, I prefer them on the base of the number of turns needed to build them.
Also, I prefer to have a diversified army, instead of having tons of (expensive, above all LC) 1-turn units and nothing else. I'd say optimal for me is: 60-70% towns 1-turn units (LI, HI, pikemen and dwarves mostly, all of them), 10-20% 2-turns units (wolf riders, HC and minotaurs), 10-20% 3/4/5-turns units, with accent on 1-turn units early in the game, on stronger units later. To have stronger units can help you also by letting the adversaries underestimate you, since all they can see in statistics is the total number of armies.
Last edited by LichKing on Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
- LichKing
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:53 pm
Re: allies - from the best to the worst
by kenc80 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:29 pm
LichKing - I think its almost romantic the way you build these wildly diverse armies. I've got respect for your strategy but let me play the devils advocate and explain the way I play (which is the opposite way of you)
My rankings start and end with 4 units:
Light Cav, Pikes, dwarves & pegasi. Give me those 4 units and I'll give you a kingdom.
Why build anything else? Dwarves and pikes are so efficient. They are perfect for water maps and also great for city defense as you mentioned. Tack a +1 pegasi onto the stack and its a force to behold. Plus the pegasus also are perfect bat killers and tag them with a hero and they can take on just about any ruin. Its far and away my favorite unit. I'd rather have 3 or 4 castles building and vectoring pegasus to the front lines to support light cav stacks than anything else.
With this setup you get 18 move strength 5 stacks (7 lite cav + 1 peg). Thats a tough load for anyone to handle. Then cancel any hero offer that doesnt include dragons and youre ready to go.
I know I know its a little more vanilla but its the way I play.
The two turn units might as well be non-existent. I pillage everything except spiders & minos. Why bother with anything else? Obviously situationally i might build orcs or elves but really why take the time and money to buy or build anything else?
A fantastic army for me would be 5 lite cav, a amazon hero with +1 negative stack and two pegs. Thats a brutal hero stack thats fast and does major damage and is cheap to maintain! Just keep cycling in the lite cavs and youve got a kingdom killer right there.
Now my one caveat is that my armies sometimes have trouble when I have to fight protracted drawn out fights. If I can't win by turn 20 then I can occasionally get in trouble in late game situations when defense becomes a priority. Its definitely an offensive army and not a good defensive one, I'll admit that.
My rankings start and end with 4 units:
Light Cav, Pikes, dwarves & pegasi. Give me those 4 units and I'll give you a kingdom.
Why build anything else? Dwarves and pikes are so efficient. They are perfect for water maps and also great for city defense as you mentioned. Tack a +1 pegasi onto the stack and its a force to behold. Plus the pegasus also are perfect bat killers and tag them with a hero and they can take on just about any ruin. Its far and away my favorite unit. I'd rather have 3 or 4 castles building and vectoring pegasus to the front lines to support light cav stacks than anything else.
With this setup you get 18 move strength 5 stacks (7 lite cav + 1 peg). Thats a tough load for anyone to handle. Then cancel any hero offer that doesnt include dragons and youre ready to go.
I know I know its a little more vanilla but its the way I play.
The two turn units might as well be non-existent. I pillage everything except spiders & minos. Why bother with anything else? Obviously situationally i might build orcs or elves but really why take the time and money to buy or build anything else?
A fantastic army for me would be 5 lite cav, a amazon hero with +1 negative stack and two pegs. Thats a brutal hero stack thats fast and does major damage and is cheap to maintain! Just keep cycling in the lite cavs and youve got a kingdom killer right there.
Now my one caveat is that my armies sometimes have trouble when I have to fight protracted drawn out fights. If I can't win by turn 20 then I can occasionally get in trouble in late game situations when defense becomes a priority. Its definitely an offensive army and not a good defensive one, I'll admit that.
- kenc80
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:16 pm
- Location: South Carolina, USA
Re: allies - from the best to the worst
by LichKing » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:45 pm
kenc80 wrote:
Why build anything else? Dwarves and pikes are so efficient. They are perfect for water maps and also great for city defense as you mentioned. Tack a +1 pegasi onto the stack and its a force to behold. Plus the pegasus also are perfect bat killers and tag them with a hero and they can take on just about any ruin. Its far and away my favorite unit. I'd rather have 3 or 4 castles building and vectoring pegasus to the front lines to support light cav stacks than anything else.
With this setup you get 18 move strength 5 stacks (7 lite cav + 1 peg). Thats a tough load for anyone to handle. Then cancel any hero offer that doesnt include dragons and youre ready to go.
My way of playing is still in progress, but I think that to have only a few kind of units makes your game predictable. You always now what you're facing and you can adopt countermeasures. I agree about Pegasi (I wouldn't play without them, they deserve a 9 in fact), but not on LC. LC is useful to use the way you say, and I usually have 1-2 towns which produces it, but I dislike it as the base unit of my armies. Mine are personal opinions, of course. Then, it's not that I buy everything I find useful, I tend to use what I find and buy pikemen, dwarves and allies, sometimes light infantry after pillaging in frontier towns.
A fantastic army for me would be 5 lite cav, a amazon hero with +1 negative stack and two pegs. Thats a brutal hero stack thats fast and does major damage and is cheap to maintain! Just keep cycling in the lite cavs and youve got a kingdom killer right there.
The Valkyrie is the weakest hero and I never take it, I often take move points for the paladin, but Valkyries are a waste imho. Two Pegasi in a stack are also a total waste, their bonus doesn't stack with itself. To have (on open) a +1 STR in one unit you risk a 3-turn unit? What matters the most, I think, is not the strength of the armies you destroy or you lose, but the total number of turns necessary to build the army you and your opponent lose in a fight. So I wouldn't waste pegasi like that. And: that stack is very easy to kill with a couple of stacks of simple HI or LC. Heroes need a stronger back-up, imho (like HC in that case, without Pegasi and a Dragon instead)
- LichKing
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:53 pm
Re: allies - from the best to the worst
by gggol » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:49 pm
I'm still learning what these units do. Takes such a long time to get the necessary gold, buy and wait for the builds, then move and assemble a stack that trial and error is quite tedious. And you have to go through with a fight to get the computation of the odds, no backing out if you don't like it. Another thing that makes decisions more difficult is that you have to decide whether to pillage before you know what other units a city produces. I believe it actually costs money to pillage after you own the city, is that right? Need better explanations and faster updating of the docs. Just now learned that temples do count as cities as far as siege engines are concerned. Don't know if the catapult and ram effects against walls stack, but I am guessing they don't. Ambush is more powerful than I realized. Still not clear on how ambush works. Does a single ambush hit kill an enemy unit regardless of health? Does it work on defense and offense? What happens in ambush vs ambush fight? I thought temples worked as in Warlords, with each one providing a bonus. That they don't makes the weak units even worse.
What I have observed is you want the effects that can't be countered, the ones that are the top of the food chain of effects and countereffects. Pikemen are great, until they're facing unicorns. Toss in some chaos/fear with a unicorn, and a stack of pikemen can be reduced to 5 and wiped out. Pegasi and dragons are good until they're facing devils. Don't know about heroes vs archons yet. Unless unicorns work against them, there is no counter to siege engines. Makes them excellent units.
No one mentioned the kraken. It's way powerful, because fear/chaos is overpowered, and the kraken gets 10!
Thinking about it in terms of effects and counters, and considering costs, I would rate the units like this:
1. Catapult
2. Unicorn
3. Devil
4. Battering Ram
5. Paladin
6. Ghost
7. Dread Knight
8. Wolf Rider
9. Kraken
Cities are always the key, no matter what else may be on a map. I assume there is no counter to the anti-wall effects of siege engines. That's why catapults are the best. Everything has some sort of terrain bonus, which makes unicorns applicable nearly everywhere. Devils negate all kinds of bonuses, and there is nothing that negates the devil's negate. The paladin is the best hero for 2 reasons. Mainly, he is the best at searching ruins, to get more money to build these expensive units. And he's the best for many weak allied units vs 1 strong enemy unit kind of fights, which is common when expanding early and taking over neutrals. For the other way around, the dread knight is the best. The green dragon is a horrible unit. Fast movement is not that important. The red dragon is better. A big trouble with dragons, pegasi, and archons is that anything that flies is easily shot down by elves. And the devil negates the red dragon and pegasi bonus.
Of the 1 turn units, so far I like them in this order:
1. Pikemen
2. Elves
3. Dwarves
Depends on the terrain of course. The main problem with dwarves is that upkeep cost of 4. The rest of the 1 turn units are pretty crummy. A few scouts can help with ruins, but they're no good as regular army units. Not even much good for helping with movement.
What I have observed is you want the effects that can't be countered, the ones that are the top of the food chain of effects and countereffects. Pikemen are great, until they're facing unicorns. Toss in some chaos/fear with a unicorn, and a stack of pikemen can be reduced to 5 and wiped out. Pegasi and dragons are good until they're facing devils. Don't know about heroes vs archons yet. Unless unicorns work against them, there is no counter to siege engines. Makes them excellent units.
No one mentioned the kraken. It's way powerful, because fear/chaos is overpowered, and the kraken gets 10!
Thinking about it in terms of effects and counters, and considering costs, I would rate the units like this:
1. Catapult
2. Unicorn
3. Devil
4. Battering Ram
5. Paladin
6. Ghost
7. Dread Knight
8. Wolf Rider
9. Kraken
Cities are always the key, no matter what else may be on a map. I assume there is no counter to the anti-wall effects of siege engines. That's why catapults are the best. Everything has some sort of terrain bonus, which makes unicorns applicable nearly everywhere. Devils negate all kinds of bonuses, and there is nothing that negates the devil's negate. The paladin is the best hero for 2 reasons. Mainly, he is the best at searching ruins, to get more money to build these expensive units. And he's the best for many weak allied units vs 1 strong enemy unit kind of fights, which is common when expanding early and taking over neutrals. For the other way around, the dread knight is the best. The green dragon is a horrible unit. Fast movement is not that important. The red dragon is better. A big trouble with dragons, pegasi, and archons is that anything that flies is easily shot down by elves. And the devil negates the red dragon and pegasi bonus.
Of the 1 turn units, so far I like them in this order:
1. Pikemen
2. Elves
3. Dwarves
Depends on the terrain of course. The main problem with dwarves is that upkeep cost of 4. The rest of the 1 turn units are pretty crummy. A few scouts can help with ruins, but they're no good as regular army units. Not even much good for helping with movement.
- gggol
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:32 am
Re: allies - from the best to the worst
by Jeremy » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:18 pm
In practice, Unicorns are almost never produced by the masses. It's possible that they are not as useful as you think.
- Jeremy
- Posts: 214
- Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:51 pm
13 posts
• Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests