Hate fish much?

[magian]

Why are the aquatic units so weak? Not being able to go on land seems like a big disadvantage, but they are weaker than comparable land (and even flying) units.

I know that they get bonuses when in swamp and water, which seems pretty redundant (since they can only enter water swamp and coastal cities). Are they intended to be bad at attacking the few cities their slimy tentacles can reach?

Also, it is rather tricky for a hero to hitch up with his aquatic ride (since the hero can't go in water and the fish can't go on land). Plus, if the hero turns into a boat, he can't then jump on a fish...CONFUSING! O_o

Perhaps I am missing something?

[LichKing]

I'm starting to use aquatic creatures and I find them very powerful. With their speed and mobility they can reach temples fast and get blessed, considering that boats have capped strength and they get a bonus in water, they're the best for sea control. A blessed serpent has strength 30 in swamp, that isn't weak. And being able to carry heroes, you save 2 turns for boarding it and it travels much faster on water even than a boat (only one movement also near the coast).

[KGB]

LichKing,

How is it that you are blessing your Sea units when they can't travel on land?

I agree with Magian that they are currently either over priced or too weak. The only real way to carry a hero is to pick one up on a port or in a coastal city which is kind of hard. No longer having land movement means they should be cheaper to buy since they aren't as useful.

They don't need huge changes, just some minor adjustments to cost and it would be nice if they could go 1 square on land (ie must remain next to a water/swamp square) so that they could pick up a hero on the shore line or cross a single land square to another swamp/water.

KGB

[magian]

Yeah, a blessed serpent is 30 strength in the water and swamp............. and that is the problem!

Giants are just walking around with 25 strength. Blessed giants in the hills are 40 strength. Plus giants have legs and can therefore walk ON LAND!!!

Aren't galleons stronger than 25 strength anyway? And they cost 20 gold? Why would I shell out 550g for a serpent?

KGB's idea of fishies being able to slither up on land (a little bit) would make it much easier to link up with a hero. But, they need a strength boost or price cut too.

[KGB]

Magican,

You misunderstand how boats work. The Galleon strength doesn't mean units fight at that strength. It just means that's the maximum strength a land unit will have on the water when in the Galleon. So for example if the Galleon has 30 strength, a Scout with 5 strength on a Galleon is still only going to have 5 strength. However, a Devil with 40 strength is going to be reduced to 30. So the primary reason to use Galleons is when you have stronger/better units to move in the water and want to make sure they fight well. The 1 turn units don't need boat upgrades since they don't see any benefit from it other than faster move rates.

So the Sea units really don't need a boost on water since they are going to be much better fighters there because of how the boats work and the fact that stronger units can only fight at 30 strength maximum while most units fight at far weaker values.

They do however need a price break. I'd say 350 for a Sea Serpent with the ability to move 1 square on land. The Kraken can be reduced in price as well by a couple hundred gold.

KGB

[LichKing]

KGB: How is it that you are blessing your Sea units when they can't travel on land?

On most maps I played there is a temple on the coast that they can reach.

KGB: The only real way to carry a hero is to pick one up on a port or in a coastal city which is kind of hard.

Not harder than having him/her embark/disembark and lose 1 turn or more. And you can do it also in swamps, there's plenty of swamps communicating with water. They're sea creatures after all, not flying ones. And you can bring the hero on water with a flying creature and from there go on with the serpent.

magian: Aren't galleons stronger than 25 strength anyway? And they cost 20 gold? Why would I shell out 550g for a serpent?

If I'm not mistaken, currently Galleons allow max STR 45. I didn't use them enough to talk, but maybe 45 STR for a galleon is too much and cost 20 is too cheap. I think a ship strength progression 15->20->25 would be better, or maybe 15->25->35 max. Maybe serpents could have +15 in sea/swamp instead of +10, but I think the price is fair, the same with Kraken. They give some more options compared to other units. On some maps (like Lonely Isle) they pose already a big threat. Just personal opinions, though.

magian: Giants are just walking around with 25 strength. Blessed giants in the hills are 40 strength. Plus giants have legs and can therefore walk ON LAND!!!

In this sense maybe you're right, I think serpents should have an edge on water, compared to other 2-turns units, if they had +15 in water/swamp they would be 30 STR against most other 2-turns units with 25. But then again, if you can bless them, they would get 35 STR on water that would be rather frightening.

[KGB]

On most maps I played there is a temple on the coast that they can reach.

Interesting. That means then that Serpents/Krakens *can* travel on land even though they aren't supposed to be doing so since Temples are *always* on land. A nice bug to be taking advantage of

KGB

[SnotlinG]

Its actually intended, so its possible to bless SeaCreatures in case you can reach the temple itself from shore/swamp.

[magian]

Thanks, I was a bit hazy on how the boat strength worked. However, I'm still not convinced that serpents and Kraken are strong enough. A giant on a boat is still 25 strength, so just as strong as the serpent. A serpent would only be 15 strength in hills vs a giant's 35 (if the serpent could actually move into hills).

45 strength galleons are pretty durn strong, and flying units retain their strength when moving over water. So, why would giving the fishies a little more muscle cause an imbalance? Not seeing it.

How about just making the serpent 25 (or 30)strength flat (no bonus in water or swamp)? Then they would be a threat to seaside cities and armies crossing bridges. Same with the Kraken, 10 fear wherever it can reach (and a strength boost).

[KGB]

Snotling,

Its actually intended, so its possible to bless SeaCreatures in case you can reach the temple itself from shore/swamp.

Why not just allow players to place temples on Shorelines that are only accessible from water? For that matter, I'll ask once again for a Shipwreck ruin (L1 ruin) that can be placed on shorelines for heroes to search from water/flying units. These additions would give more reason for players to be on the water other than simply traveling on it.

Magican,

I think sea units need water bonus's rather than all pure strength. Now I'd suggest Serpents be a base 20 (for defending/attacking cities) with +10 in the water so they would be more effective than they are now and to help justify their price.

KGB