Ruins

[KGB]

How do I see what the ruin reward is/was?

In a game I am in, I searched 2 ruins this turn.

The first one had 2 skeletons and at the battle lasted long enough for me to actually see it take place. The reward was an item which was nicely displayed on a reward screen. I then picked up the item. Very straight forward.

The second one had 3 skeletons and the battle screen disappeared instantly so that I never saw any hits take place. The game literally jumped to the hero level up screen. I also never saw any reward screen. I went back to the battle report and watched my hero kill the 3 skeletons. However I still have yet to know what the reward is. It's definitely not an item since there is not one there. I didn't get any allies (if allies are even a reward). I can't tell if my gold increased because I don't remember what it was prior to entering the ruin. If I had to guess, I'd think I might have gotten Experience as a reward because my L1 hero jumped from 0 XP to almost level 3. If that's the case there may be a bug that's jumping the game too fast to the hero level up screen.

KGB

[kenc80]

can I just chime in that I think ruins are drastically too hard? Even with a paladin its way too risky. I have a new rule where I dont search any ruins at all. Its just too darn risky in my opinion. I went to a L2 ruin and faced SEVEN opponents (I died). I just think thats a lil tough. I haven't even attempted an L3 ruin and probably never will.

[Moonknight]

I've only tried out a low level ruin so far, but of course my hero died on the first turn...if they stay like this i'll probably not search ruins either...i know, i know, i need to try a few more games...

[ams16]

I like the ruins being hard. I don't think they are too hard. But I think you need to take them seriously. And, sometimes, you lose a good hero. I believe that's what the ruins should be.

That said, I think the rewards are a little low.

[piranha]

There should not be 7 in 1 ruin. Will have to fix that.

Here is the deal at the moment.

L1 ruin 12 sided dice
L2 ruin 20 sided dice
L3 ruin 33 sided dice.

Skeletton UL (undead lore) 3
Ghoul UL 5
Mummy UL 8
Vampire UL 14

Paladin starts out at UL 9 the other heroes at 4.
A paladin by himself is going to win most L1 when he is still level 1. With a crusader or wizard he is 100% sure to win L1.
You can enter L2 ruins when your hero is L2 so the paladin is now 12 (if you increase UL) and 15 with a crusader. Not as safe but you will still win most ruins (okay if there are 7 ghouls you will lose, I'll have to talk with snotling about the ruin populater).

Lets say the other heroes start at UL 6 instead giving them a better chance at L1 with a crusader.
We can set UL limits for ruins. For example
L1: 3 - 9
L2: 8 - 15
L3: 15 - 28

Let me know what you think are reasonable limits here.

You know heroes have a max value how far they can increase their own bonuses. The items are added to that so with a high level hero you can go very high in bonus values with items.

[SnotlinG]

Ruinbug fixed now. Already started games can still have the bug though, but it is very low chance of the ruin beeing empty, < 5% I would say...

[KGB]

Piranha,

Late reply here as I am on vacation and only checking in occasionally.

A couple of points:

1) The Crusader unit currently does 2 things. Helps with searching ruins AND gives a +3 morale bonus. Because of this, I am seeing endless Crusader units being made compared to other 2 turn units besides a Yeti. I don't think the Crusader should do 2 useful things. I'd suggest that the Crusader Ruin Lore bonus drop to 2 but be additive (2 Crusaders with a hero gives +4, 3 +6 etc). Then I'd suggest the Morale bonus go to another 2 turn unit (Giants are never used now for example) and be +2 instead of +3.

2) Since the Paladin is the only hero that can search ruins it's basically the only useful hero at L1. The other heroes need a bit more ruin lore or the Paladin needs to drop some make other heroes useful in terms of ruin searching. Or the Paladin needs to start with NO command bonus (but be able to buy it at level up time as he can now) and leave the ruin lore unchanged on all heroes. Right now I literally only take Paladins as long as there are L1/L2 ruins to search.

3) As far as ruin chances go, you need to set a rough guideline for survival. I'd suggest 80-90% for a Paladin and 60-70% for other heroes in L1 ruins at L1 (with no Crusader/Wizard). Fix the ruin generator so that the undead units fit in those percentage ranges. Then players can add multiple Wizards/Crusaders to increase chances since that bonus should be additive per unit with the hero. The L2 ruins can increase difficulty by say 50% (so a Paladin would drop to 40-45% with no undead lore increase and no crusader/wizard and the other 2 heroes to 30-35). L3 can increase 50% again in difficulty so that a L3 Paladin with no undead lore increase or crusader/wizard would now be down to 20-22% chance to win. With undead lore increases + multiple crusaders/wizards players can always now reach 100% even on L3 ruins.

KGB

[magian]

I know the ruin guardians have already been toned down a notch, but I am still losing a large number of heroes to level one ruins. The pair of ghouls that inhabit every ruin seem to delight in murdering my paladins. I swear they must have an ambush chance on top of their 5 strength (since I saw one 1-hit-kill my hero).

Also, when I do luck out and conquer a ruin, the reward is a pittance of gold or a helm that increases my hero's view range or personal attack strength. Not worth the time to move there, much less the severe risk entailed.

I know that I could build an army of scouts to increase my odds of success, but the rewards don't justify the time expenditure.

The ruins can remain hard, that's fine. But the rewards should be something of value. Are uber heroes really so much of a problem? My heroes have been totally pathetic.

[KGB]

Magican,

I've not had near the bad luck you have. But then I basically wait until L2 to search a ruin and generally bring 1 scout with me for the extra +1 ruin bonus. Often I am literally building scouts in my capitol on turn 1 if there are nearby ruins so I can search them when my Paladin is still L1. The savings of gold lets me get a 2nd hero that much sooner. To me the death chance seems quite fair. You can build 3 scouts and reach 100% chance with a Paladin at L1 to search a ruin. So there is a nice tradeoff between ruin searching and expansion which is exactly what the game needs.

Rewards seem fine for L1 ruins. I've gotten between 300-800 gold. The items I've gotten range from +3 command (nice) to +10 group ambush (nice) to extra view (blah). But for a L1 ruin, that seems fine.

Uber heroes aren't a problem in my book. I too think heroes have been nerfed way too much. I understand the idea is to not over power heroes but right now the bonus they bring is pointless since you can get the same by investing in a Yeti or Crusader for 800 (often less than the cost of a hero with 0 allies!) and get far more by investing in a Pegasi for 1250 (often the cost of a hero with 0 allies!!!). Heroes should all definitely start at +5 bonus (Valkrie at +8) at L1 and then increase by 3 (or 5 for Valkrie) when they increase their command/chaos skill.

KGB

[Jeremy]

Uber heros are a HUGE problem in my book. I'm considering quitting a game in which I'm way ahead on cities because of my opponent's +5/-1 stack. Everyone has a different definition of fun -- but having zero chance againsts a +6 stack isn't mine.