Beta4 Bonus System Question

[KGB]

Piranha,

With B4 I changed the caps from B3. The swarm bonus made it difficult to cap at 45 so in B4 the cap is low 5 and high 75.
Positive bonus cap is 30, negative is 25. There is no cap at 45.

So then in step 1 where you calculate the unit strengths you just let the value go from 5-75 now due to swarming? I don't see any problem with that. Certainly the final number for a unit after every bonus is taken into account would need to be as high as 75 to handle bless+swarm+30 stack bonus+terrain bonus.

I think a stack bonus range of -5,25 is probably better than -25,30. Certainly on the negative side, -30 is too much. Not sure if +30 over +25 is going to be game breaking so I don't think you need to address that one as much as the negative value.

Difficult question, I think adding terrain bonuses after is good. It will help the weakest units but units like spiders will still be the same.
I realize that we might have to make caps but are there any other ways to deal with it that you can think of?

Yeah the order in which you do things and force everything into a valid range (5,75) is important obviously. I suggest using the order that War2/DLR and then range checking after each step. That will make sure situational bonus's like Terrain and Anti-Air don't get removed on weaker units by a negative stack bonus.

Of course it still won't do anything for -10 Fear removing 10 city wall bonus. For that you'll have to specifically code caps between the stack bonus's.

About items, when you put an item on the unit it will increase their base value. But items will stack even when a hero bonus is maxed so if you have max leadership 20 and find a +2 leadership ring you will have 22.

Cool. But what about Negate from Archons. Does it affect items? I don't think it should.

KGB

[LichKing]

So Walls belongs with the Stack bonus section since its part of the overall stack bonus which caps out at +30.

Wall Bonus shouldn't be included in the +25 cap to the positive bonus (in my opinion). +25 should be the cap for Leadership+Morale.

Then how do you see the following work out.

DK + Yeti vs Crusader
1) -3 -2 +3 = -2
2) -3 (-2 dropped no stacking) +3 = 0

You're right, and a Pegasus would be enough to negate all possible negative bonus and give a + 1 bonus.
No .

I'm totally fine with the idea that Chaos could carry over but Fear couldn't. My only concern is how hard that makes it for someone to understand the 3 bonus's:

City Walls/Siege - Range from 0 to 15. No negative carry possible to Morale/Leadership.
Morale/Fear - Range from from -15 to +15 (I realize no unit hits the max now). Only a negative 5 carry over to City Walls/Leadership.
Leadership/Chaos - Range from -15 to +20. Can carry over any negative amount to Morale, but only 5 to City walls.
Max negative value of -5 from all 3 above bonus's but no combining negative carry over (Fear+Chaos).

See, this is very complex to understand and write even with examples.

This isn't really necessary. Only the global range (-5, +25) would matter.

Components for units strength, base strength apart, would be:

1.Fear/Morale: they can negate each other. Both negated by Negate Aura (Devil)
2.Chaos/Leadership: they can negate each other. Both negated by Negate Heroism (Archon).
3.Walls: negated by siege units, Fear and Chaos would be capped at -5 against them (but still effective in this sense).
4.Situational Bonus (Terrain/Anti-Air/Swarm): calculated for the single unit, applied last. Terrain Bonus negated by Cancel Terrain.


A simple model could be:

1. Stack bonus (Fear + Chaos + Leadership + Morale)
2. apply cap (-5, +25)
3. add wall bonus
4. add terrain/anti-air/swarm bonus

In this case high fear could block high leadership. Since there aren't units with Fear higher than 5 (except Kraken), this wouldn't change anything.

If you want that units with Fear higher than 5 (like Kraken) couldn't block high leadership, the steps for final unit strength would be:

1) Fear/Morale for each stack
2) apply cap (-5, +25)
3) Chaos/Leadership for each stack (no cap)
4) then 2) + 3)
5) apply cap again
6) add Wall Bonus
7) add terrain/anti-air/swarm bonus



Examples:

__________________________________________________________________________

In this case Chaos+Fear is capped at -5

DK (C 15) + Elf (+10 Forest) + Medusa (F 5) vs. Unicorn (CT 10, +10 Forest) + Paladin (L 7) (Forest)

1st step (Fear/Morale) -> -5 for 2nd stack
2nd step (Chaos/Leadership) -> 2nd stack = -15 +7-> -8

Final Stack bonus:

1st Stack = none
2nd Stack = -5 -8 = -13, capped at -5

Then for each unit:

DK = 45 (no bonus)
Elf = 12 + 10 (Forest) -10 (Cancel Terrain) = 12
Medusa = 35 (no Bonus)

Unicorn = 30 - 5 (Stack Bonus) + 10 (Forest) = 35
Paladin = 45 -5 (Stack Bonus) = 40
_____________________________________________________________________________

In this case high Chaos can block Dragon's Morale:

DK (C 15) + Pegasus (M 5) + Medusa (F 5) vs. Paladin (L 7) + Dragon (M 12) (Wall 10)

Stack Bonus:

1st step (Fear/Morale) -> 1st stack = +5, 2nd stack = 12 - 5 = +7
2nd step (Chaos/Leadership) -> 2nd stack = -15 + 7 = -8
3rd step (1. and 2. combined) -> 1st stack = +5; 2nd stack = +7 -8 = -1

Final Stack bonus:
1st Stack = +5
2nd Stack = -1 + 10 (Wall) = +9

For each unit:

DK = 45 + 5 (Stack Bonus) = 50
Pegasus = 25 + 5 (Stack Bonus) = 30

Paladin = 45 + 9 (Stack Bonus) = 54
Dragon = 35 + 9 = 44

[KGB]

LichKing,

Three things:

1) Your simple model needs to be


1. Base Strength (capped in boats on water)
2. Stack bonus (Fear + Chaos + Leadership + Morale)
3. apply cap (-5, +25)
4. add wall bonus
5. apply cap (-5,+25)
6. add terrain/anti-air
7. apply max unit strength cap (5,75)

I basically added the initial strength calculation that includes capped strength on water since that happens first before anything else and then showed that the final calculations have to range between 5,75 for a units strength.

Also I added a second cap after the wall bonus. I do not want to reach a +40 bonus if for example you have (+15 walls, Paladin +13 leadership, Dragon +12 Morale). That +40 would be a bit too extreme given a Spider in the city with them would be getting +50.

2) Second, for the moment I removed the swarm bonus from the situational category (terrain/anti-air) because I wanted to discuss it further.

If you add it at the end, then land based units on boats with a swarm bonus (Scorpion) aren't subject to the boat penalty because their bonus comes after that calculation. If you instead think of swarm as part of a units base strength (since it's always there regardless of situation) then land units on boats will have their swarm capped by the boat penalty while flying swarm units (Demons) would not.

It's mostly a question of preference but to keep swarm from being a bit too good especially on water, I'd prefer it be done up front in step 1 so that the boat penalty can limit the swarm bonus.

3) Third, did you agree that for simplicity we can stack Fear/Chaos since they are limited to an overall -5. In other words a DK + Yet vs Lt Infantry would be -3-2=-5.


All your other calculations and examples look good.

KGB

[LichKing]

I basically added the initial strength calculation that includes capped strength on water since that happens first before anything else and then showed that the final calculations have to range between 5,75 for a units strength.

I think the boat cap comes last, e.g. light infantry on boat with a dragon would fight at max 15 (unless you upgrade the ship), not 22.

Also I added a second cap after the wall bonus. I do not want to reach a +40 bonus if for example you have (+15 walls, Paladin +13 leadership, Dragon +12 Morale). That +40 would be a bit too extreme given a Spider in the city with them would be getting +50.

A spider in town is 35, +15 wall = 50, +25 hero+dragon = 75. What would you like to be able to reach the cap, if not that? 4 Demons in a town wall 15 with hero+dragon ? If you cap the bonus with walls at 25, a town with wall 15 would be over the cap just with a dragon, adding a hero wouldn't give benefits. This forces you to have catapults... quite normal I'd say, against a town with 15 wall.

2) Second, for the moment I removed the swarm bonus from the situational category (terrain/anti-air) because I wanted to discuss it further.

If you add it at the end, then land based units on boats with a swarm bonus (Scorpion) aren't subject to the boat penalty because their bonus comes after that calculation. If you instead think of swarm as part of a units base strength (since it's always there regardless of situation) then land units on boats will have their swarm capped by the boat penalty while flying swarm units (Demons) would not.

But I think boat cap should come after everything else, even after swarm/terrain/anti-air. Swarm could be logically part of base strength, and also terrain and anti-air, for that matter, but it would complicate the way you have to compute that in an algorithm, I think. I made the list in a way that I thought final strengths for units would be always correct.

Third, did you agree that for simplicity we can stack Fear/Chaos since they are limited to an overall -5. In other words a DK + Yet vs Lt Infantry would be -3-2=-5.

Yes I agreed, it was foolish from my part to think that they shouldn't stack, I didn't consider that kind of things (like a Pegasus neutralizing all possible negative stack).

So I'd say:

1. Stack bonus (Fear + Chaos + Leadership + Morale)
2. apply cap (-5, +25)
3. add wall bonus
4. add swarm/terrain/anti-air
5. add all this to base strength (blessing included)
6. apply max unit strength cap (5,75)
7. apply boat cap, if on boat

This list is not 'logical' in a human sense. For example, if you put 'base strength' first and then apply a cap, you cap that too. About walls, it's my opinion, though.

[KGB]

LichKing,

I think the boat cap comes last, e.g. light infantry on boat with a dragon would fight at max 15 (unless you upgrade the ship), not 22.

I don't have any Beta4 boat combat experience yet with bonus units to know for sure.

But in War2/DLR bonus's definitely came *on top* of the Boat strength cap. This was also true in Beta2/3 as well. In other words, adding a Pegasi to a boat stack gave +5 combat even if the units were already at the boat limit.

Otherwise boat travel is way to harsh a penalty.

A spider in town is 35, +15 wall = 50, +25 hero+dragon = 75. What would you like to be able to reach the cap, if not that? 4 Demons in a town wall 15 with hero+dragon ? If you cap the bonus with walls at 25, a town with wall 15 would be over the cap just with a dragon, adding a hero wouldn't give benefits. This forces you to have catapults... quite normal I'd say, against a town with 15 wall.

I wasn't aware there was a need to actually have a unit reach the cap (75).

My problem with that is that cities already benefit from getting bonus's from/applied to 32 units instead of the normal 8. They don't need the ability to get another +15 from the walls on top of any other bonus. If cities are allowed to reach +40 there will be many cases where it will be easy to exceed the +25 limit (a dragon +12 in a city with +15 walls as you noted) and we'll have lots of complaints about cities that can't be conquered (something that was discussed ad nausuem during Beta2) since right now you can only remove 5 Morale and 10 Walls from a Medusa/Catapult combo (this is another reason to have a 10 Fear unit besides the Kraken in water).

As far as Hero+Dragon+Walls not giving extra benefit, what's the problem with that? It may sometimes actually be a benefit to have all 3 in your city if the opposing player brings a Devil/Archon/Catapult etc and it may not if he doesn't bring any of those units. But to give a pure +40 in those cases means that the only way to conquer such a city is with 50-100 Orc/Wolfrider/Ghost stacks. Many players did not want this kind of turtle tactic to be possible so the +40 is a no-go.

But I think boat cap should come after everything else, even after swarm/terrain/anti-air. Swarm could be logically part of base strength, and also terrain and anti-air, for that matter, but it would complicate the way you have to compute that in an algorithm, I think. I made the list in a way that I thought final strengths for units would be always correct.

I disagree completely. War2/DLR and the early Beta's definitely allowed bonus's to come on top of the boat cap. I don't want to overly handicap water travel so the boat cap should come first before anything else. The only question is whether swarm comes as part of this or later at the end.

KGB

[piranha]

I think the boat cap need to be last (which it is right now). We introduced 2 more boats and if you only cap unit base there will almost never be any reason to upgrade your ship.

Also the problem with too high defense values when placing a dragon, hero and high wall level could be solved by allowing a higher negative stack bonus than -5 .

Its a bit of fun if its possible to be extremely powerful, and it can work if there are counters and if its not always going to be way better to go for negative bonuses for example.

[LichKing]

Also the problem with too high defense values when placing a dragon, hero and high wall level could be solved by allowing a higher negative stack bonus than -5 .

I concur actually. Give some power to that DreadKnight . He isn't a baby after all. Also in War2 there was the unicorn that gave -2 stack. And there it was even deadlier, because negative stack was calculated after everything else, and I don't think it could be canceled by anything

But in War2/DLR bonus's definitely came *on top* of the Boat strength cap.

As far as I remember in War2 boat strength was always capped at 4, they didn't get any stack bonus from flying units, but I may be wrong.

[KGB]

Piranha,

If boat cap comes last then Boats have a 'negate everything' power since they are going to cancel all positive bonus's (Morale + Leadership) for a stack (assuming it takes a unit over the boat cap which won't take much) while allowing negative ones.

There are definitely still reasons to upgrade your boat even with bonus's coming later since the base strength is still reduced to boat level (basically anything over strength 4 needs a boat upgrade unless you want it to fight at a weaker strength). Not to mention better boats travel further and don't suffer the penalty of traveling in the ocean.

Also if city walls are going to be allowed to add on top of the +25 bonus to reach +40, can I then ask for the Orcs/Wolfrider to be changed to 20% and 30% assassin strike since they are going to be the only units capable of attacking such a city. That will at least speed up the job of breaking down such a city since you can't stop portaling and it now only takes 1 turn to portal to a city <25 squares away. There is powerful and then there is ridiculous. +40 is ridiculous as that's as big a bonus as a Dragons native strength.

And as far as a negative bonus of more than -5 goes, I'd LOVE a 4 turn, 10 or 12 Fear unit to cancel the Dragon Morale. I just don't want that Fear to carry over against Walls/Leadership/Terrain Bonus etc. The 10 or 12 Fear would just cancel out the Morale so it would be limited by the -5 carry over.

LichKing,

Ah the Unicorn and it's -2 stack. That came in the bastardized War2 Deluxe. In the original only the Elephant had a negative stack bonus and it was rightly limited to -1. Not sure who green lighted all the unbalancing changes in Deluxe (Unicorn, 2 turn Pegasi/Gryffons etc) but I don't believe it was Steve since by then he was in the middle of producing DLR (1995) and probably just let someone change stuff without looking at what got changed. The original game was much better done balance wise than Deluxe. So when I write about War2, I am writing about the original.

And I know for a 1000% fact that you got stack/hero bonus's on boats. I used to religiously used a Pegasi + boats to stop hordes of AI boats in 7v1 games since the +1 addition was a big deal. Unless of course this also got changed in Deluxe (which it may have).

KGB

[piranha]

O, lets skip what it was like in W * for a moment.
I know they were good but this doesn't have to work exactly the same.

Too much carry over negative bonuses causes other reducing bonuses (siege, negate terrain) to lose value.
Too little carry over negative bonuses causes heavily defended cities to be hard to capture.

If we go down the CAP road we just want to lock everything in a narrow system to avoid overpowering.

I think that the system should be as flexible as it can. I want to allow for as high values without cap as possible while still making sure that there is a good counter.

We have ambush which is rarely used much (at least not in the games I played), I guess one reason why people dont use it as much is because its only great cost wise on taking down a super army, but when you battle normal armies its better to have your own super army instead.

Its also true that negative bonuses works better on ships. If negative powers should be allowed to roam free there need to be something to counter it and preferably something that doesn't counter morale/leadership as much.

How about orc and wolf rider gets increased ambush.
Ghost gets attack +10, and negate fear +4.

[magian]

If you think ambushed is underused, then you could make it more cost-effective for heroes to get ambush (for their stack). I haven't taken it because it is overpriced when compared to some other hero upgrade options.

I agree that warbarons doesn't need to be a warlords 2 or 3 clone. But, right now the bonus system is a frankenstien's monster made up of parts from both games, haphazardly stitched together. It is inelegant, confusing and there is too much overlap between powers.

There is no need for two negate powers and two negative powers, have one counter per bonus power, either partial (a negative power) or total (a full negate power).