Units cost and value

[LichKing]

The argument has been touched in another post, so after a few games this are my impressions about the units in beta4. Overall I think they're much more balanced than before, but some units are still much weaker than others. I'll divide them into four categories:

1. units that I buy if I don't find them in an amount I feel correct. I regard these units as tendentially under priced or balanced.
2. units that I use only if I find them, but I never buy them. I consider these balanced.
3. units that I pillage or keep depending on the situation. I consider these mostly balanced or slightly overpriced.
4. units that I pillage on sight. I consider these as overpriced or needing a rework, because sometimes I wouldn't buy them even if they cost less or much less.


=========== 1. Units that I buy ==================

Scout : I buy it sometimes, for UL or if I need to travel through desert.
Light Infantry : it's a very good unit to start with, and you can then buy something better in that city without losing much.
Orc : I buy it depending on the map and the position. Probably under priced (maybe 200).
Elf : it's probably the best 1-turn unit and I buy it almost always. Probably under priced.
Heavy Infantry : I buy it mainly in 1vs1 or when I expect to meet the enemy soon, otherwise I skip it.
Dwarf : I usually buy it, but moderately
Pikeman : I buy it sometimes, depending on the position, but much more rarely than elves.
Yeti : I find it always worth to have, to make your Dread Knight more powerful.
Wizard : a great unit, I buy more than one if I have the money. UL on them makes them too powerful, imo, because they're so fast.
Scorpion : if I have the money I buy them, at least 2, less makes no sense. Potentially they're the strongest 2-turns unit.
Kraken : very powerful on sea
Sea serpent : rather low priority, but it can give you a great advantage. I wouldn't underestimate it.

Other units that I buy, usually in this order: Red Dragon (or Pegasus), Devil (should be a 5-turn unit imo), Pegasus (or Red Dragon), Grand Archon (also 5-turns), Green Dragon, Medusa (rarely).


=========== 2. Units that I use only if I find them ==================

Crow, Eagle
Heavy Infantry : excluded the cases above.
Light Cavalry : I'm still not a big fan of these, but when I find them I'm not unhappy.
Wolf Rider : good unit with a lot of possible uses, from morale to critical strike, and they don't burden your finances.
Crusader, Giant, Heavy Cavalry, Minotaur : other good 2-turns units


=========== 3. Units that I pillage or keep depending on the situation ==================


Battering Ram/Catapult : you don't need these as before, since now negative bonus is plentiful and makes them less useful, between the two the battering ram is the one I've used the most. I usually keep the first and pillage the others.
Ghost : at the beginning of the game I tend to pillage them, always in 1vs1. Otherwise, once you have a good lot of them, they're good.
Unicorn : depends on the mood and the situation. To have to wait 4 turns for one of these makes me skip them mostly.
Mammoth : if there's a lot of ice they're obviously fabulous. Otherwise a good unit, but sometimes I like money more.
Medusa : since there are Yetis that are also faster, they've lost a bit of appeal to me.
Sandworm : they aren't a bad unit, very useful sometimes, great on desert.


=========== 4. Units that I pillage on sight ==================

Spider : too slow for an attack unit, and HI is better to defend towns. A town with wall 10, 2 HI mean 25*2=50 STR, against 45 of the spider.
Gryphon : even worse, because it's a flyer and a 3-turns unit.
Elephant : I saw somebody using it, imo it's a waste. I'd plunder them and get a dragon instead.
Archon : no thanks. I get his bigger brother. If Grand Archon were a 5 turner I'd consider them.
Demons : they were an amazing unit, now they're a pain if you have them, because it means you didn't pillage them. I'd like they were just as they were before (+1 attack and ignore city walls, now that elves/wizards are more common and there are also eagles they were already a bit weaker, but still good for sneak attacks).
Elementals : I rarely consider keeping them. They're a bit overpriced maybe.

The problem of raising the cost for some units (Dragons, etc), is that people who find them will have a big advantage, so I wouldn't raise the cost too much, unless maps were modified, to prevent spawning of these units.

Another problem with units balance (plundering vs keeping) is that neutral towns that produce (sometimes not really) good units produce 4 kinds of units, often all powerful, so it's almost always better to pillage them, sometimes even if it's a dragon. With the proceeds you can sometimes buy whatever you like. I'd like better if neutral towns produced only one unit, unless it's determined through 'detailed production' in the map editor.

Even if neutral towns produced by default only one unit, to reach a balance among units is important to me because players who find units that are worth to keep have an advantage over players who find bad units. For example, I find a town with Medusa: hard to kill, not always worth to keep. A town with devil: hard to kill, well worth to keep. One with dragon: relatively easy to kill with elves, good to keep. A town with ghost: a joke to kill, a lot of money guaranteed. A town with spider: hard to take, and then you plunder it. If I find myself surrounded by medusae or sandworms, and my opponent finds all the good stuff and easy to kill, victory is a question of luck.
This aspect is maybe impossible to solve 100%, in maps with random city production, but a better balance among units would help because the advantage of plundering vs keeping wouldn't be extreme.

Compared with beta3, 1 turners have been toned down (good thing) and 2 turners are sometimes worth buying and almost always worth keeping. 3 turners are still very weak overall (except Pegasi and Kraken), I would give 3 HP to Elephant, Sandworm, Gryphon, Elemental and maybe Medusa. 4 turners are either too strong (Devil, Grand Archon, I'd make them 5 turners) or too weak (unicorns, I'd make them 3 turners with 2 HP, and demons).

Some changes I'd like were:

Slighly lower price for some 2 turners (Crusader 650, Heavy Cavalry 600)
Minotaur : 25 + 10 in city (still cancellable by unicorn, but a bit stronger), slightly lower cost (650)
Spider : 15 STR + 15 in city, move 16, 2 of the following : critical strike 20%, ignore city walls (they climb them), swarm (+2 up to +10); cost 800
Gryphon: STR 35 + 10 in city, 3 HP, 18 move, cost 1000
Elephant (900), Sandworm (950), Elemental (900) : 3 HP
Medusa : 3 HP, or 2 HP + critical 100%
Unicorn : 35 STR, 3 turns, 2 HP, cost 1500
Devil, Grand Archon : 5 turns, cost 2000
Demon : STR 30, +10 attack, ignore city walls, no swarm, 3 HP, cost 1600

It would be nice also to have some crossed bonus between units, that come in place only in case of individual combat (as for anti-air), for example:

Fire units: elementals, red dragons, devil, demon
Fire vulnerability: spiders, scorpions, battering ram/catapult, mammoth, yeti(-5 against fire units)
Fire resistance: dwarves, giants, sea creatures (+5 against fire units), fire units

Ice units: mammoth, yeti
Ice vulnerability: fire units
Ice resistance: units with fire vulnerability, sea creatures

Creatures of Light : elves (-1), archons(-3), unicorns(-3), crusaders(-2) (-x to creatures of Darkness in individual fight)
Creatures of Darkness : orc(+1), wolf rider(+2), ghost(+2), devil(+3), demon(+3), medusa(+3) (+x in fight against all creatures, except against creatures of Light)

[KGB]

LichKing,

We have a very very different ideas about unit costs. Probably because you are a pure War2 player and I have played both War2 and DLR.

My experience from both those games plus Warbarons tells me 3 absolute truths.

1) Players never ever build units that take more than 3 turns unless they provide an important stack bonus. It just isn't worth investing or waiting for a 3-5 turn unit that doesn't do something important for the stack. You are far better off pillaging and then making 3-5 1 turn units or a a 2 2 turn units.
2) Players tend to heavily pillage cities in order to accumulate large amounts of gold for heros + Dragon allies and/or buy really early Dragon production or potentially Devils/Archons in mid game. This is a reinforcement of #1 which says don't wait to produce things when you can get them instantly. This is why I suggested not giving out Dragons/Archons/Devils as allies before turn 10.
3) The 1 turn units are the most important units to cost / balance correctly because these are the bulk of armies built and bought.

As a result of 1-3, more than 50% of the units in the game (War2/DLR/Warbaons) tend to never get used unless you find them for free and even then they probably get pillaged unless you have a very specific map need for that unit. Literally these days I buy nothing but 1 turn units and Dragons/Pegasi/Devils/Archons.

My experience says that in general most non-stack bonus units should be cheaper rather than more expensive even if it seems counter-intuitive. The reason is to give less money when pillaging them and to make it easier for players to invest in those units in order to potentially make use of them.

Here's my cost changes

Scout - 50 (it's half a Lt Infantry with UL and move bonus being it's real value)
Lt Infantry - 100 (stays same)
Crow - 100 (cheaper since its less useful now with all the anti-air and can't carry hero)
Orc - 175 (assuming it gets first strike increased to 10% otherwise 150)
Hv Infantry - 150 (it's complete garbage now other than a defensive unit)
Elf - 250 (it's over priced despite being a very solid unit)
Lf Cavalry - 225 (see Elf)
Eagle - 300 (A superb anti-air unit but useless otherwise and too expensive to buy unless it gets cheaper)
Pikeman - 300 (Only useful in the open otherwise you are better off with Hv Infantry as a defender since it's too slow to attack with. Basically I pillage these units all the time)
Dwarf - 400 (Much more versatile and useful than Pikeman)
Sea Serpent - 300 (See Eagle only its even more highly specialized)
WolfRider - 300 (or 400 if the strength goes up to 25). At 300 they won't be pillaged much and you can buy them for a reasonable cost.
Giant - 400 (and I might still not buy them but at least I am less likely to pillage them)
Yeti - 700 (perfect as is with the stack bonus being why it costs so much)
Hv Cavalry - 500 (slightly better than a Giant)
Crusader - 800 (perfect as is with the stack bonus being why it costs so much)
Minotaur - 550 (slightly better than a Hv Cavalry)
Scorpion - 550 (average strength is 3 of these which is 27 strength making them about the same as a Minotaur in a city in terms of value)
Battering Ram - 400 (they need to be cheap else they will never be bought since as you noted negative bonus's are not capped so it's easier to just get those instead).
Sandworm - 600 (3 turn units with no stack bonus's must be cheap to be considered to buy/not pillage as in truth a Yeti City is more valuable than a Sandworm City).
Elemental - 600 (See Sandworm. In truth this unit above all others should be able to walk on Lava since it's a unit made of Pure Fire!)
Ghost - 500 (or 600 if strength increases to 25. Useful because it flies and carries a hero, has UL and has the stack first strike skill)
Kraken - 1100 (It's got Medusa skills with additional ones on water plus 1 more hit. The fact it can only go on water/cities is why it doesn't cost more than the Medusa).
Spider - 600 (slightly better than a Minotaur, and I mean very slightly)
Catapult - 800 (twice as good as a Battering Ram but takes longer to make. I am curious why Battering Rams and Catapults don't have a small +X in city bonus)
Elephant - 1000 (it has a very powerful stack bonus that works in a lot of places)
Gryphon - 700 (and it will still barely get used other than really late game in 1v1 with lots of cities on both sides)
Pegasi - 1250 (perfect as is with a great stack bonus)
Mammoth - 1300 (With that 3rd hit it's a 9/2 unit in 3 turns. Would help if the +2 group move stacked)
Wizard - 700 (Primary due to the speed. Otherwise it's an average 2 turn unit)
Medusa - 1100 (Pegasi has better bonus, moves further, flies, carries heroes etc so Medusa has to cost less)
Unicorn - 1100 (and it should be changed to a 3 turn unit)
Demon - 800 (It's a Gryphon that takes 1 more turn to make unless you get several of them which is hard to do with 4 turn build times so the cost now reflects that)
Green Dragon - 1600 (with that 3rd hit it's a beast and the best 'meat' unit in the game. Would help if the +4 group move stacked).
Archon - 1400 (The 8 negate is useful against L1-L3 heroes so it has value as a cheap alternative to the Grand Archon)
Devil - 2000 (I agree it should be a 5 turn unit)
Red Dragon - 2400 (WAY under priced now. It's 2x a Pegasi so should be 2x the cost)
Grand Archon - 2200 (The incredibly high negate value means this needs to cost a lot more than the base Archon to justify both units. It should also be a 5 turn unit)

Basically units with stack bonus's cost a lot. Units that don't are cheap. With overall less money from pillaging the units in the game can cost less (esp 1 turn units). The big bonus units now cost a lot more relative to the cost of the average 2 and 3 turn units which is as it should be. If you think I priced things too cheaply, ask yourself exactly what you would now suddenly buy a ton of that would be unbalancing.

I didn't address a lot of the other changes you asked because I simply wanted to cost out the existing units correctly. Some of those suggestions are interesting (like the vulnerabilities which were called slayer skills in DLR) but others not so much (your spider is way over powered with +15 in cities, more move, swarm, ignore walls etc. If any unit should be ignoring walls it would be the Ghost. Spiders in reality should be +15 defense bonus and not +15 in city since they would be terrible assaulting units but great defenders with their laired webs. But War2 tradition demands the city bonus, something DLR did away with giving them a new poison skill instead).

KGB

[LichKing]

1) Players never ever build units that take more than 3 turns unless they provide an important stack bonus. It just isn't worth investing or waiting for a 3-5 turn unit that doesn't do something important for the stack. You are far better off pillaging and then making 3-5 1 turn units or a a 2 2 turn units.

I perfectly agree.

2) Players tend to heavily pillage cities in order to accumulate large amounts of gold for heros + Dragon allies and/or buy really early Dragon production or potentially Devils/Archons in mid game. This is a reinforcement of #1 which says don't wait to produce things when you can get them instantly. This is why I suggested not giving out Dragons/Archons/Devils as allies before turn 10.

To wait for hero+allies is a losing strategy, in my opinion, that doesn't work well in beta4, but it's my opinion.

3) The 1 turn units are the most important units to cost / balance correctly because these are the bulk of armies built and bought.

I disagree. You have a lot of units, why making the player have to stick with 1 turn units? Who said they have to be the bulk? Also 2 turns units should be candidates for that. If a 2 turns unit is 2x the strength of a 1 turn unit isn't convenient, because 1) it costs more and 2) 2 units get double bonus from wall/morale/leadership/etc. So a 2 turn unit should cost less than now and have something more that makes them worth having (e.g. wolfrider has a lot of value for its abilities, so wizards, scorpions etc.), to compensate the loss on individual bonuses. I think most 2 turn units are pretty ok, but they should cost less or be reworked (spiders). If not, why to have them in the game? to pillage them?

As a result of 1-3, more than 50% of the units in the game (War2/DLR/Warbaons) tend to never get used unless you find them for free and even then they probably get pillaged unless you have a very specific map need for that unit. Literally these days I buy nothing but 1 turn units and Dragons/Pegasi/Devils/Archons.

If you don't balance the rest of the units, you'll have the situation where players who find good units (dragons, wizards, devils etc) will have a huge advantage over players who will have to spend a lot of gold to stay on par. At that point you'll never see certain units, because to plunder becomes an absolute necessity.

My experience says that in general most non-stack bonus units should be cheaper rather than more expensive even if it seems counter-intuitive. The reason is to give less money when pillaging them and to make it easier for players to invest in those units in order to potentially make use of them.

If you don't make those units worth keeping, you'll have the opposite effect: people who find Pegasi or devils will keep them, and people who don't, will get even less money when plundering and an even greater disadvantage. The only solution is to balance the units (and their costs). And maybe to change the way plundering works: instead of giving money based on the cost of the unit, maybe a forfeit amount based on the number of units you plunder, modified by the highest plunder bonus of your army.

Here's my cost changes

...

I mostly agree, except: the difference between 1- and 2-turn units should be smaller. You want to make 1-turn units cost less, I'd want that they cost more, almost as 2-turn units. Now you admit you almost only use 1-turn units, and most people do this. This is because bonuses (walls/morale/terrain etc) are applied to each unit, and 2-turn units can't compete. They should cost more (or the same) and 2-turn units (except yeti) less.

Here's my list

Scout - 75
Lt Infantry - 100
Crow - 100
Orc - 250 (+10 in swamp and 5% critical is rather amazing for a 1-turn unit, with 10% crit I'd say 350)
Hv Infantry - 200 (or 300 and upkeep 1)
Elf - 350 (or 300 with 10 STR)
Lt Cavalry - 300
Eagle - 300
Pikeman - 300 (I consider it a good unit now, if HI upkeep were 1 not anymore)
Dwarf - 450 (if there were an underground/cave terrain, I'd give him that, not hills)
Sea Serpent - 300
WolfRider - 300 (or 400 if the strength goes up to 25) (I agree)
Giant - 400
Yeti - 700
Hv Cavalry - 500
Crusader - 700 (I'd put him on par with the yeti, who would buy Crusader at 800 if he can have Pegasus at 1250? 3 morale is (hardly) slightly better than 2 fear, but Crusader has 1 move less, so I think they should cost the same)
Minotaur - 550
Scorpion - 600
Battering Ram - 500 (Yeti gives -2, B.ram gives -5 in towns, 400 is too cheap).

About 3 turn units, I'd make them more powerful (3HP), not simply make them cost less, for the reason I explained.

Sandworm - 1000 (with 3 HP, it gives also fear and move 1 in desert)
Elemental - 700 with 3 HP
Ghost - 600 (STR 25)
Kraken - 1100
Spider - 800 (but 16 move, 15+10 or +15 in city, critical 20% and ignore walls, or move 16, 20+10 and critical 20%. I insist on this, or they become hard to kill when you find them, and give nothing; spiders should be change, because now are pathetic)
Catapult - 800
Elephant - 1000 (but 3 HP)
Gryphon - 800 (35+10, 3HP, 18 moves)
Pegasi - 1250
Mammoth - 1300
Wizard - 1000 (anti-air and UL are strong on a such fast moving unit)
Medusa - 1000 (with 100% critical or 3HP)
Unicorn - 1500 (3 turns but high cost, it's still a powerful bonus)
Demon - 1200 (but 3 HP, 30+5 attack, ignore walls)
Green Dragon - 1600 (2 HP).
Archon - 1400
Devil - 2000 (5 turns, 2HP)
Red Dragon - 2000 (if the cost is too high you really should disable dragons in neutrals, I said already why)
Grand Archon - 2200 (same as for dragons)

A comparison in 6 turns:

spider (20+10, 20% critical, ignore walls) attacking a town : 30*6HP=180
spider defending (wall 10) : 30*6HP+30=210

gryphon (35+10, 3HP) attacking : 45*6HP=270 (but vulnerable to anti-air)
gryphon defending : 45*6HP+20=290

Lt Infantry attacking : 10*12HP=120
Lt Infantry defending : 20*12HP=240

3 spiders (ignoring walls) against 6 LtInf 180 vs 120, against HvInf 180 vs 180. Critical 20% would advantage spiders, but it's the minimum you can give them if they cost a lot more. And a Pegasus would advantage much more 1 turn defenders than 2-turn spiders.

As you see Light infantry is rather good to attack and the best defender. Not to talk about stronger 1 turn units. The spider isn't that overpowered and a gryphon with 3 HP is still weak against elves. Stronger units have still the advantage that they can make stronger stacks with heroes, but it's a relative advantage that can be worked out with multiple stacks of 1-turn units and morale/fear units.

[KGB]

LichKing,

To wait for hero+allies is a losing strategy, in my opinion, that doesn't work well in beta4, but it's my opinion.

It's not my strategy. But I see a lot of Warlords using it. Especially on large number of player FFA/Team maps where you start very close and getting a Dragon ally on turn 4-5 can win the game for you by turn 8 because you eliminate a neighbor who has no chance against that Dragon that early. If Dragons and other 5 turn allies are not awarded till turn 10 this will get rid of this problem.

The other thing is with unlimited heroes, there is less incentive to buy production. In War2/DLR with the 5 hero limit when you get to 4 or 5 heroes you spend money on production because you know you are not going to get more heroes/allies. But in Warbarons, as long as you have money, you get heroes and allies so you can in effect get a Dragon every few turns if you can generate a large gold income from pillaging/ruin plundering etc. I suggested increasing the time between accepted hero offers (as in when you accept there is a cool down of a few turns before another offer regardless of gold) as a way to deal with infinite heroes in Warbarons.

I disagree. You have a lot of units, why making the player have to stick with 1 turn units? Who said they have to be the bulk?

I don't want them to be the bulk. I am merely saying that is currently how War2/DLR/Warbarons is based on the costs of units/hero offers + allies etc.

In most games (like Starcraft that Piranha referenced) over time you get access to stronger/better units. But in War2/DLR/Warbarons that doesn't happen because of improperly priced units and the effect of getting heroes/allies. So there is never the transition to 2 and 3 turn units because it isn't cost effective. I would actually like to see the gradual transition to 2 and 3 turn units as game reach turns 10, 20, 30 etc. Obviously, so would you and a lot of other players I talk to.

Also 2 turns units should be candidates for that. If a 2 turns unit is 2x the strength of a 1 turn unit isn't convenient, because 1) it costs more and 2) 2 units get double bonus from wall/morale/leadership/etc. So a 2 turn unit should cost less than now and have something more that makes them worth having (e.g. wolfrider has a lot of value for its abilities, so wizards, scorpions etc.), to compensate the loss on individual bonuses. I think most 2 turn units are pretty ok, but they should cost less or be reworked (spiders). If not, why to have them in the game? to pillage them?

Again, I agree 100%. That's why I dropped the price on 2 turn units WAY down so that they can be easily purchased and there is no reason to plunder them because they won't return much gold. Most 2 turn units aren't that good/valuable but they are better than 1 turn units because in general they move much further.

If you don't balance the rest of the units, you'll have the situation where players who find good units (dragons, wizards, devils etc) will have a huge advantage over players who will have to spend a lot of gold to stay on par. At that point you'll never see certain units, because to plunder becomes an absolute necessity.

Not sure I have ever seen Dragons/Devils/Archons in cities on map unless they were placed there (not including the Bullrun mistake we seem to have) by the designer. Those must be bought. But I am dropping the price on all units WAY down so that everything but the super units can be afforded very easily.

The only solution is to balance the units (and their costs). And maybe to change the way plundering works: instead of giving money based on the cost of the unit, maybe a forfeit amount based on the number of units you plunder, modified by the highest plunder bonus of your army.

That might be an idea. Or change the plundering to give a higher percentage of gold than it currently does, but cap it at something reasonable (say 800 max regardless of how much is in the city). Beta4 has more money than Beta3 so that helps. I assume quests in Beta5 will provide even more gold income as will +X gold items.

I mostly agree, except: the difference between 1- and 2-turn units should be smaller. You want to make 1-turn units cost less, I'd want that they cost more, almost as 2-turn units. Now you admit you almost only use 1-turn units, and most people do this. This is because bonuses (walls/morale/terrain etc) are applied to each unit, and 2-turn units can't compete. They should cost more (or the same) and 2-turn units (except yeti) less.

Making 1 turn units cost more is the wrong way to go. They need to cost less. And if they need to do less, then so be it. But right now with your higher costs on 1 turn units, the only one worth taking is the Lt Infantry. After that none of the others is remotely worth having which means suddenly all the 1 turn units are broken.

Orc - 250 (+10 in swamp and 5% critical is rather amazing for a 1-turn unit, with 10% crit I'd say 350)
Hv Infantry - 200 (or 300 and upkeep 1)
Elf - 350 (or 300 with 10 STR)

These costs are WAY too much for these units. Why would anyone buy these. They won't, they will only use the ones they find for free. Which means if you luck out and find these and I don't I am at a huge disadvantage since buy 4 elves costs 1400 gold. 1 turn units must be very cheap. If Orcs need to be +5 in Swamp and Elves need to go back to 10 strength so be it but the numbers I suggested are the ones that need to be in place for these units.

Dwarf - 450 (if there were an underground/cave terrain, I'd give him that, not hills)
Giant - 400

Why would a Dwarf cost more than a Giant? Giant is 25 strength, Dwarf is 15. The combat is about even (2 Dwarves vs 1 Giant is a 55% Dwarf win) but the Giant moves much further and a stack of Giants eats a stack of Dwarves for lunch. 400 each is right here.

It's too bad mountains aren't passable terrain for ground units. Still, there are roads through mountains and no one gets a bonus there. Maybe the Dwarf should be +5 in hills and +10 in mountains which can only be used on roads through mountains so mostly they mostly get the +5.

Crusader - 700 (I'd put him on par with the yeti, who would buy Crusader at 800 if he can have Pegasus at 1250? 3 morale is (hardly) slightly better than 2 fear, but Crusader has 1 move less, so I think they should cost the same)

OK, I can buy that line of reasoning. I was thinking that when a Crusader stack means a Yeti stack, the Crusader stack is at +1 (3v2) so it was slightly more valuable. But making them the same due to slower movement works for me.

Battering Ram - 500 (Yeti gives -2, B.ram gives -5 in towns, 400 is too cheap).

But the Yeti/Crusader bonus can be used anywhere. Rams are only good against cities with walls (many end up at L2 or lower and more will end up that way once the automatic lowering of walls by 1 comes back in Beta5). Also I looked at is as the cost to upgrade from L0 to L3 walls is 50+50+100=200. A Ram at 400 costs twice that which seems reasonable since it cancels it. At 500 the Ram needs to have a city bonus of say +5 vs cities. Similarly, to go from L0 to L6 costs 50+50+100+100+100+200 = 600 total to guarantee you get +5 vs a Ram. So the 400 nicely splits the difference between 200 and 600 cost.

About 3 turn units, I'd make them more powerful (3HP), not simply make them cost less, for the reason I explained.

You have to be incredibly careful with giving an extra hit. It means so much more than people think in terms of how powerful a unit is. A Sandworm with 3 hits and 35 strength is better than a 40/2 dragon (remember a 30, 3 hit is a 40, 2 hit). In fact at 35 with 3 hits it's better than 4 Dwarves at strength 15 or 2 Giants at strength 25. I'm really leery of giving too many units a 3rd hit. Some maybe, but most/all no.

Sandworm - 1000 (with 3 HP, it gives also fear and move 1 in desert)
Elemental - 700 with 3 HP
Spider - 800 (but 16 move, 15+10 or +15 in city, critical 20% and ignore walls, or move 16, 20+10 and critical 20%. I insist on this, or they become hard to kill when you find them, and give nothing; spiders should be change, because now are pathetic)

I prefer the Sandworm with the ignore city walls bonus. It's the natural fit. I agree it should move 1 in the desert so it can speed stacks with it (which the scorpion can't). It doesn't need Fear since we already have Medusa/Kraken/Yeti for our fear units.

The Elemental with 3 hits is one 3-turn unit I agree could use the boost since it's speed makes it hard to use on offense where it's bonus is.

I agree the Spider is pathetic. Why not just put it back to what it was. 25 strength, +10 in cities and cost 600 where it belongs and not the ridiculous 1000. Would you be against it going back to it's original numbers? There is no way it can move 16 since nothing makes me think spiders would move faster/better than men walking or Minotaurs etc. I also don't see the ignore city walls aspect since it climbs walls, it suffers boiling oil just like men on ladders do. It doesn't need critical chance either since Orc/Wolfrider already have those skills and this would just be a repeat of them esp the Wolfrider skill.

Elephant - 1000 (but 3 HP)

If it has 3 hits it has to cost same as Mammoth since they are the same unit. It's another good candidate for a 3 hit unit since the Mammoth has it but that means 1300 cost.

Gryphon - 800 (35+10, 3HP, 18 moves)

If you want 3 hits, it has to cost 1300 same as a Mammoth since it's going to be better than a Dragon in combat with that extra hit. So I think it would be much better off with 18 moves and 700 cost and remain a 2 hit unit so it can be used in the late game.

Wizard - 1000 (anti-air and UL are strong on a such fast moving unit)
Medusa - 1000 (with 100% critical or 3HP)
Unicorn - 1500 (3 turns but high cost, it's still a powerful bonus)
Demon - 1200 (but 3 HP, 30+5 attack, ignore walls)
Green Dragon - 1600 (2 HP).

1000 is too much for any 2 turn unit. The Wizard is nice, but he's not that over powering that he needs to cost 1000. You can get all the UL you need from a couple of scouts and they cost only 80, move 20 and have a terrain bonus to help your hero move. If you need anti-air the Eagle now costs 300 and has +26 anti air for a total of 36 (compared to Wizards 40). So why again are you buying him? Primarily as an early turn raider and that's it. Seriously 700 is plenty for this unit as once everything else gets cheaper his 1000 cost will look really bad by comparison.

You want to remove the Medusa's fear? Why? What unit do you think needs it instead since we need a +5 Fear unit.

Ive never ever seen a Unicorn in any game I've played (well over 100). Not a single one. So the bonus it has can't be that powerful or else players seriously misunderstand how useful the bonus is. So my guess is it's less valuable than we think since only some units in a stack tend to have a terrain bonus on any given terrain. Hence I'd suggest starting at 1100 and see if it gets used or over used. We can always adjust upwards if too many get made (which I doubt).

As for the Demon, what is the reason behind the ignore city walls? Why can't all fliers do this since they technically all fly over walls? The Sandworm perfectly covers the job of ignoring city walls on a 3 turn unit. Leave it with the Swarm bonus but make it a 3 turn unit so you can actually make these in numbers then put the cost at 900. 3 hits is a definite no-go on this unit in my mind esp with the changes you suggested it would be unstoppable.

As for the Green Dragon, who would pay 1600 gold for a 40/2 unit when a 30 strength 3 hit unit has the same combat value and costs half as much or less and is made 2 turns faster? The 3 hits is the only thing of value the Green Dragon has. Honestly, if the bonus system was fixed (with caps as we discussed) this unit would be the ideal +10 Fear unit for 2000 gold.

Red Dragon - 2000 (if the cost is too high you really should disable dragons in neutrals, I said already why)

2000 is too cheap given it's incredibly high bonus (+12 is the same as a L7 Paladin which isn't exactly common). It already can't be in neutrals unless placed there by a map creator. If it's going to only cost 2000 the bonus has to come down to +10. Otherwise 2x the cost of a Pegasi or 2400.

3 spiders (ignoring walls) against 6 LtInf 180 vs 120, against HvInf 180 vs 180. Critical 20% would advantage spiders, but it's the minimum you can give them if they cost a lot more. And a Pegasus would advantage much more 1 turn defenders than 2-turn spiders.

6 Lt infantry (10 str) vs 3 spiders (str 30) is actually 10*6=60 hp for the Lt Infantry. And it's a slaughter. The Spiders win that battle 89% of the time. With a Pegasi boosting the strength to 15 (or vs Hv Infantry with no Pegasi), the Spiders win 65% of the time. It's a big big mismatch giving the Spiders the ignore wall bonus and that's without 20% critical chance. It's not until you get to 7 units at 15 strength that you have an even battle with 3 spiders at 30 strength. That's why just going back to the 25 strength, +10 vs cities is going to be more than adequate for them at 600 gold cost. They will be worth the investment then.

The spider isn't that overpowered and a gryphon with 3 HP is still weak against elves.

But you want to make Elves (and Wizards) too costly to actually use/buy. At the price you mentioned you can't afford to buy them. Hence they need to cost what I suggested so that you can buy them. My guess is that with the prices of all units dropping dramatically that players will be buying more of the better units and less of the 1 turn units even with my costs. There is now incentive do so because so many units are now affordable and worth making. With these costs I know I would buy fewer 1 turn units at my costs simply because there are other attractive options.

KGB

[LichKing]

Making 1 turn units cost more is the wrong way to go. They need to cost less. And if they need to do less, then so be it. But right now with your higher costs on 1 turn units, the only one worth taking is the Lt Infantry. After that none of the others is remotely worth having which means suddenly all the 1 turn units are broken.

Ok then, but you should do one of the two, either weaken them (and you can't weaken them much) or raise the cost.

These costs are WAY too much for these units. Why would anyone buy these.

I buy elves regularly at 300, I would buy them also at 350.

Why would a Dwarf cost more than a Giant? .. 400 each is right here

you're right

You have to be incredibly careful with giving an extra hit. It means so much more than people think in terms of how powerful a unit is. A Sandworm with 3 hits and 35 strength is better than a 40/2 dragon (remember a 30, 3 hit is a 40, 2 hit). In fact at 35 with 3 hits it's better than 4 Dwarves at strength 15 or 2 Giants at strength 25. I'm really leery of giving too many units a 3rd hit. Some maybe, but most/all no.

As you said, units that give stack bonus are more valuable. You don't make them fight directly. A sandworm with 35/2HP is weaker than 3 pikemen/HvInf. With 3HP would be slightly stronger. Sandworm fights usually in the front line, it can't be weaker than the 1 turn units it's trying to kill. Same for gryphons. A green dragon instead, is useful for its move stack bonus, I don't make him fight in the front line. It confers a stack bonus, and shouldn't be that strong. If found alone, it should be relatively easy to kill.

I prefer the Sandworm with the ignore city walls bonus.
...
You want to remove the Medusa's fear? Why?

Sorry for the confusion. When I added something as comment, I meant it as an addiction to what is present now. So, sandworm 3HP with fear in desert, ignore walls and desert movement bonus. Medusa with 3HP and fear 5, or 2 HP,fear 5 and critical 100%.

If you want 3 hits, it has to cost 1300 same as a Mammoth since it's going to be better than a Dragon in combat with that extra hit. So I think it would be much better off with 18 moves and 700 cost and remain a 2 hit unit so it can be used in the late game.

Again, as you said, only units that confer stack bonus should cost much more. Gryphon attacks first, it's raw strength and nothing else, can be weakened by unicorns and anti-air. They need to be strong. At the moment they are the weakest unit in the game by far, 3HP wouldn't even change much, they're even worse than spiders.

I agree the Spider is pathetic. Why not just put it back to what it was. 25 strength, +10 in cities and cost 600 where it belongs and not the ridiculous 1000. Would you be against it going back to it's original numbers?

It would be a bad copy of the minotaur, I'd like to see some difference between units. I'd be more for making it cost more and giving him some extra abilities.

If it has 3 hits it has to cost same as Mammoth since they are the same unit. It's another good candidate for a 3 hit unit since the Mammoth has it but that means 1300 cost.

Elephant is STR 30, vs 35 of Mammoth, but it is subjective, in the sense that I don't like much elephants, others can disagree.

1000 is too much for any 2 turn unit. The Wizard is nice, but he's not that over powering that he needs to cost 1000.

Again it's subjective, I find wizard a very strong unit, I buy them often at 1300, more than once, I'd buy it at 1000 even more often. 32 moves means: you can always bless it (30 is very strong for a 2 turn unit), can reach your hero everywhere for UL, +15 anti-air makes him the ultimate dragon/archon killer. They scout, they kill, etc. Eagle is much slower and vulnerable to elves/wizards.

Ive never ever seen a Unicorn in any game I've played (well over 100).
...

You may be right in this, I've nothing against making it cost less. I saw unicorns btw.

As for the Demon, what is the reason behind the ignore city walls?

Demons were very adapt for sneak attacks, even if relatively weak. I've won an epic game thanks to them in beta3, that's why I love them as they were. Nothing now can cover the strategic role they had.

Sandworm: 35*3HP=105, that's between 3 and 4 HvInf (15*2HP*3=90, 120 if 4). With 6 morale for both, it becomes 41*3HP=123 vs 21*2HP*3=126. So it's absolutely not unstoppable. Why spend lots of money on a sandworm if it doesn't give advantages?

6 Lt infantry (10 str) vs 3 spiders (str 30) is actually 10*6=60 hp for the Lt Infantry. And it's a slaughter. The Spiders win that battle 89% of the time. With a Pegasi boosting the strength to 15 (or vs Hv Infantry with no Pegasi), the Spiders win 65% of the time.

LtInf has 2HP as spider. When I say 10*2HP*6=120 I mean it's like having 12 units STR 10 with 1HP, 3 spiders would be like 6 units with STR 30 and 1 HP, so 30*2HP*3=180. It's very realistic that 180 vs 120 has 89% chances winning, and against HvInf that would be 65%. And? The spider costs much more than HvInf or LtInf, If I buy them or I beat a spider in a neutral city (that requires much more effort than beating a HvInf) I'd like to see some benefit. It must be a bit stronger, otherwise why having it?
I applied the same kind of logic in my gryphon/sandworm example.

That's why just going back to the 25 strength, +10 vs cities is going to be more than adequate for them at 600 gold cost. They will be worth the investment then.

They wouldn't be worth the investment. Again,

2 HvInf (wall 10) = 25*2*2HP = 100
1 spider (wall 10) = 45*2HP = 90

Where's the gain? With morale/hero bonus HvInf has all to gain after that.

[KGB]

LichKing,

Ok then, but you should do one of the two, either weaken them (and you can't weaken them much) or raise the cost.

Personally I'd remove all the +10 terrain bonus's (Orc, Dwarf, Lt Cavalry but for the Lt Cavalry give him +5 in the sand to compensate and drop the Pikeman down from 15 to 10). Change the Elf back to 10 strength and make his anti-air be +12 then make the costs what I suggested.

That should be more than enough if the costs of the other units drop and some 3+ turn units get 3 hits.

It's funny but in Beta2 everyone said the 1 turn units were too crappy compared to the other units and so they got all these additions in Beta3. Now they are too useful so that the higher turn units don't get used. LOL.

I buy elves regularly at 300, I would buy them also at 350.

Now. But would you if all the other changes here went into effect to lower the other unit costs, change stats etc? I think you'd suddenly realize that they cost too much.

As you said, units that give stack bonus are more valuable. You don't make them fight directly. A sandworm with 35/2HP is weaker than 3 pikemen/HvInf. With 3HP would be slightly stronger. Sandworm fights usually in the front line, it can't be weaker than the 1 turn units it's trying to kill.

The thing is we both know that Sandworms rarely come on their own. Usually they come with nice bonus units as part of a strong stack. 1 turn units often are simply city guards relying only on walls bonus they are not getting vs the Sandworm.

For example in a game I am playing, a turn ago I had 4 Orcs, 1 Ram, 2 Sandworms and a Pegasi. I got attacked in the open by a L1 DK, Dragon, Devil, 2 Hv Infantry, 1 Elemental and a Giant. I got slaughtered (<5% chance to win) to the point I killed just the Giant (55% outcome). My guess is I either would kill 0 units or just the Giant. My point here is the enemy stack is a decent hero stack but not overpowering and yet it walked through a stack of mine like it wasn't even there and that represented 15 turns of production time to get.

If some of these units start getting that 3rd hit we are going to see a lot more 'walking through like they aren't there' battles when these 3 hit units get bonus's. I'm leery of that happening so I don't want to give out too many 3rd hits until it's really obvious that the unit must have them. So I'd like to err on the side of caution especially with flying units.

Sorry for the confusion. When I added something as comment, I meant it as an addiction to what is present now. So, sandworm 3HP with fear in desert, ignore walls and desert movement bonus. Medusa with 3HP and fear 5, or 2 HP,fear 5 and critical 100%.

Ah, I understand now. The Medusa with 100% critical (death gaze) would be really interesting that's for sure. I don't think the Medusa needs the 3rd hit since she is a stack bonus unit and rarely fights.

Again, as you said, only units that confer stack bonus should cost much more. Gryphon attacks first, it's raw strength and nothing else, can be weakened by unicorns and anti-air. They need to be strong. At the moment they are the weakest unit in the game by far, 3HP wouldn't even change much, they're even worse than spiders.

Again, I am worried about 3 hit fliers more than any other unit. Especially since Gryffons never come on their own, they always come with a Pegasi or Dragon and with more moves would be blessed more often. And if they are in a city they will be almost impossible to kill with that 3rd hit and their +10 bonus.

Anti-air can help but if it's the *only* credible threat it means they are likely too powerful. What happened in DLR was that the flyers mostly ended up with 3+ hits. To the point that the only 1 turn units with value against them were anti-air and assassination (called first strike). So ultimately the only 1 turn units that get made in DLR are anti-air and assassination other than fast moving units used to scout the map.

This is going to be worse in Warbarons because the trend in map making is to load maps with heavy terrain/water to the point that flying is such an attractive option rather than slog across a map. With immunity on mountains/water (ie you can't attack from land to water or water to land or land to mountains which DLR allowed) fliers lurk unmolested jumping from water to mountains to avoid attacks until they can hit cities.

So I'm really against Gryphons and Demons getting 3rd hits. Overall I'd prefer land units to get 3 hits and fliers be restricted to 2 since Flying is so good. So if the Gryphon needs something else like 35 strength and +10 vs cities to justify 700 cost so be it.

It would be a bad copy of the minotaur, I'd like to see some difference between units. I'd be more for making it cost more and giving him some extra abilities.

Then maybe it needs a brand new ability I had suggested the DLR poison skill for Beta4 but it didn't get implemented.

It definitely doesn't need swarm/ignore walls since that would make it a bad copy of the scorpion/Sandworm or worse, so good it makes those 2 units pointless.

Personally I tend to think of the Spider as a defending unit due to his 12 moves and the Minotaur as an offensive one with the extra moves. Maybe the Minotaur needs to go to 16 moves to help make that distinction a bit better. With all the other changes we suggested, a cheap 2 turn spider with his high bonus in cities might be really valuable.

Again it's subjective, I find wizard a very strong unit, I buy them often at 1300, more than once, I'd buy it at 1000 even more often. 32 moves means: you can always bless it (30 is very strong for a 2 turn unit), can reach your hero everywhere for UL, +15 anti-air makes him the ultimate dragon/archon killer. They scout, they kill, etc. Eagle is much slower and vulnerable to elves/wizards.

Strange, you are the only person I know who has bought a Wizard. Wow, I didn't know they got bought. I like them and I use them when I find them but I'd never spend 1300 on one when I could get a Dragon for a few hundred more or a Pegasi for less money etc.

What you say about blessing them is true but again on more and more maps with heavy terrain and all the water I find they don't get to use their speed much because they can't move far. Now on some maps like Bullrun, 7 Kingdoms etc they are great but for the most part they aren't. Plus a few paragraphs above you mentioned that 35 strength Sandworms weren't very useful against 1 turn units so how can a 30 strength Wizard be much more useful?

Also I ask again, with all the other changes coming, would you still buy many at 1000? I think you won't because other units are suddenly going to look a lot more attractive. If we find 700 is too cheap it can always be boosted but something tells me you might be the only Wizard buyer in town

Demons were very adapt for sneak attacks, even if relatively weak. I've won an epic game thanks to them in beta3, that's why I love them as they were. Nothing now can cover the strategic role they had.

To which I say, 'Thank God'. I found in Beta3 they came way too often in the early turns as allies and were used to simply eliminate a player because they can't even defend in in their capitol due to the ignore walls. Now some of that is the fault of having them come as early turn allies (something I am against with Dragons/Devils/Archons too).

It comes back again to my comment above about the power of flight esp on more and more maps. The Sandworm has the Ignore Walls covered. So giving it to the Demon is just saying please make flying stacks of Demons/Gryphons/Dragons and heroes. To which the only defense is Elves/Eagles and that's what the game will degenerate into which would be a shame.

Too bad Chaos is reserved only for the DK. Otherwise I'd say why not give the Demon +5 Chaos and then leave him as a 4 turn 1600 cost unit. This would give Archons another reason to exist, especially the Lesser Archon.

Sandworm: 35*3HP=105, that's between 3 and 4 HvInf (15*2HP*3=90, 120 if 4). With 6 morale for both, it becomes 41*3HP=123 vs 21*2HP*3=126. So it's absolutely not unstoppable. Why spend lots of money on a sandworm if it doesn't give advantages?

So you can pair him with bonus units and make a really strong stack. See my comment earlier about how easily a decent stack of mine was wiped out.

But you've convinced me to at least try the Sandworm at 3 hits and 1000 gold and see how it works out. He and the Elemental will now be the prime Meat units in good stacks.

They wouldn't be worth the investment. Again,

2 HvInf (wall 10) = 25*2*2HP = 100
1 spider (wall 10) = 45*2HP = 90

Where's the gain? With morale/hero bonus HvInf has all to gain after that.

I believe that with Rams down to 400 and Catapults down to 800 there will be a lot more siege in the game. I know I will buy a Ram before a Dwarf because I want to reduce those walls. So if walls get lowered by 5 it's 80 vs 80. If a Ram comes into play it tilts things for the Spider. At 600 gold I would purchase some and I suspect others would too.

KGB

[magian]

Interesting thread.

I am leaning towards KGB's price scheme, however Lichking has some interesting ideas.

I like the Medusa's death gaze (but certainly not with 3 wounds too) and Demons getting Chaos 5 (demons being negated by archons seems appropriate).

Giving 3 wounds to 3 turn+ ,non-stack bonus units makes sense to me. They might actually be worth the cost of purchase and the long time it takes to build them. Doing this would encourage that 'late game transition' that KGB was referring to. That said 3 wound fliers could be problematic. I don't think any flier that takes less than 4 turns to produce should have 3 wounds. maybe the griffon is better suited to being an expensive 2 turn unit (ala the wizard).

The green dragon should keep his extra wound (it would be near pointless without it) and the demon should not ignore walls.

[Jeremy]

I think one of the objectives of a pricing system is that you at least occationally see every unit produced.

Another is that people tend to evolve what they produce through a game. With more 1 turn units near the beginning, but more 2 turn units 20 turns in. So people are encouraged to upgrade -- that's not so much a function of price, but of power.

And the third objective of the pricing system is, of course, that Red Dragons should cost more.

[ams16]

All I can say is that Red Dragons and Devils are too cheap. (Also, I like Dwarves, but 425 is steep.)

[magian]

I'd actually like to see the Red Dragon get toned down a bit, +12 is just too much. +10 seems like more than enough to me. I did like the RD having three wounds though (it is a huge dragon after all).