Units cost and value

[LichKing]

What I'd like to see in the near future is mostly:

1. 1-turn units could stay the same (maybe orcs/elves terrain bonus reduced to 5, pikemen's to 10), 2-turn units' cost a bit reduced (except yeti)

2. critical 100% (or 90%) for medusa

3. a 3rd hit for Sandworm/Griffin/Elemental would be imo acceptable. Griffins wouldn't become so strong, they could maybe become worth keeping or buying. Their price (above all Sandworm) should be kept high (less for elemental). They would become fearsome, but I don't think they would unbalance the game. Maybe we would see Griffins and elementals from time to time. Sandworm strength could be brought to 30 with 3HP

4. a rework for spiders (I'd reduce their natural strength, give them 16 moves, and some special abilities like swarm/critical), to make them reasonably powerful (more than minotaurs) and with a cost around 800, to make them the strongest 2 turn units after wizards. My proposal is:

Spider: 15+15(in city), critical 15-20%, move 16, cost 800
Minotaur: 25+10(in city), move 14 (or 12), cost 550

5. raising the cost for dragon/devil/grand archon ONLY if their presence in neutrals is eliminated, otherwise the advantage for finding them is too big.

6. unicorns in 3 turns, devil/grand archon in 5

7. lower cost for demon (it seems to me any other change would make him too powerful)

[KGB]

LichKing,

3. a 3rd hit for Sandworm/Griffin/Elemental would be imo acceptable. Griffins wouldn't become so strong, they could maybe become worth keeping or buying. Their price (above all Sandworm) should be kept high (less for elemental). They would become fearsome, but I don't think they would unbalance the game. Maybe we would see Griffins and elementals from time to time. Sandworm strength could be brought to 30 with 3HP

I think a 3 hit Gryphon would make the Sandworm/Elemental not be used unless they cost about half the price of a Gryphon. Why build land units when you can build a flier. I'd prefer to hold off on 3 hits for the Gryphon and instead just make him a lot cheaper.

4. a rework for spiders (I'd reduce their natural strength, give them 16 moves, and some special abilities like swarm/critical), to make them reasonably powerful (more than minotaurs) and with a cost around 800, to make them the strongest 2 turn units after wizards. My proposal is:
Spider: 15+15(in city), critical 15-20%, move 16, cost 800
Minotaur: 25+10(in city), move 14 (or 12), cost 550

I still don't see the 16 moves on a Spider. Not sure how small scurrying creatures move faster/further than huge ones like Yeti/Minotaurs etc. I'd much rather the Minotaur be the offensive unit with 16 moves because as a large/giant creature it fits better.

I'd still prefer to see the Spider go back to his 25 strength, +10 in cities, 12 moves but cost 600. Yes, the Spider and the Minotaur perform similar functions but with 16 moves the Minotaur would be the one used on offense and the Spider on defense. Not sure there is anything wrong with those kind of roles.

5. raising the cost for dragon/devil/grand archon ONLY if their presence in neutrals is eliminated, otherwise the advantage for finding them is too big.

I agree. But it's impossible to do since Map Makers can specify production on neutrals and if they manually set production or set a city to 'powerful' it will make those units. It's the latter case where they are randomly handed out in 'powerful' settings that's the problem. Hopefully SnotlinG will fix that in Beta5 so that 4 and 5 turn units can't ever be randomly found in neutrals.

KGB

[LichKing]

I think a 3 hit Gryphon would make the Sandworm/Elemental not be used unless they cost about half the price of a Gryphon. Why build land units when you can build a flier. I'd prefer to hold off on 3 hits for the Gryphon and instead just make him a lot cheaper.

The problem I see reducing only the cost, is that Gryphon towns produce 3-4 units, it would still be convenient to plunder it, since it is a bad unit now. If you make the Gryphon 35 STR, then demons would be even more useless. With a 3rd hit even more. They would be maybe better if Gryphon were 35+10 (cost 900), and Demon also a 3 turn unit (cost 1200 or so). It's hard to make a swarm with a 4-turn unit.

I still don't see the 16 moves on a Spider. Not sure how small scurrying creatures move faster/further than huge ones like Yeti/Minotaurs etc. I'd much rather the Minotaur be the offensive unit with 16 moves because as a large/giant creature it fits better.

It would be better than now, so I'd be fine with it. There's still the problem of multiple production, so it could still be convenient to plunder them. But this is a separate problem that could find a separate solution (like max 2 productions in neutrals, and only for 4-5 turn units)

I agree. But it's impossible to do since Map Makers can specify production on neutrals and if they manually set production or set a city to 'powerful' it will make those units. It's the latter case where they are randomly handed out in 'powerful' settings that's the problem. Hopefully SnotlinG will fix that in Beta5 so that 4 and 5 turn units can't ever be randomly found in neutrals.

Mapmakers should turn powerful cities into good cities, and leave the powerful ones in particular positions, and maybe add some extra defense to those cities.

[KGB]

LichKing,

If you make the Gryphon 35 STR, then demons would be even more useless. With a 3rd hit even more. They would be maybe better if Gryphon were 35+10 (cost 900), and Demon also a 3 turn unit (cost 1200 or so). It's hard to make a swarm with a 4-turn unit.

I'm totally fine with making the Gryphon 35+10 for 900. It can even be cheaper than that to be honest just to see if it gets them made/bought and then to figure out if they are too good/bad.

I agree Demons should be 3 turn units because as you say, it's hard to get masses of them to make the Swarm bonus worth while. Not sure anyone would buy them for 1100 though when you can get the Gryphon for 200 less and for city attacks it's the same as a a Demon (only Demon moves further).

Interestingly, after my Chaos for the Demon comment, HatchFactory mentioned in another game that the Sandworm says it gives 'Chaos' in the desert, not Fear. I assume this is an icon problem showing the wrong icon. But maybe it is giving Chaos. Anyone tried to know for sure? I think a 4 turn Chaos +5 Demon for 1600 wouldn't be over powered.

It would be better than now, so I'd be fine with it. There's still the problem of multiple production, so it could still be convenient to plunder them. But this is a separate problem that could find a separate solution (like max 2 productions in neutrals, and only for 4-5 turn units)

I don't worry about the 3-4 units plunder issue. I've often plundered such towns and simply built the exact same unit there and turned a profit and sometimes a loss It just depends on your plunder value and how much value the other units have. It's a gamble.

Longer term though city money should be distributed better as you noted. I suggested that in Beta3 that the cities have a set value of gold for a level (Eg poor 400 gold, so you fill it with 400 gold of units, say 1 Dwarf or 1 Lt Inf + 1 Elf or 1 Orc + 1 Hv Inf kind of thing with an allowance to go over/under by 50 gold to match up multiple units adding up correctly). That would prevent the Scout in 1 city while another has a Dwarf.

Mapmakers should turn powerful cities into good cities, and leave the powerful ones in particular positions, and maybe add some extra defense to those cities.

Yeah I went back and re-submitted Bullrun after making that edit. Hopefully Piranha/SnotlinG replaces the existing one with the new one soon.

KGB

[LichKing]

Interestingly, after my Chaos for the Demon comment, HatchFactory mentioned in another game that the Sandworm says it gives 'Chaos' in the desert, not Fear. I assume this is an icon problem showing the wrong icon. But maybe it is giving Chaos. Anyone tried to know for sure? I think a 4 turn Chaos +5 Demon for 1600 wouldn't be over powered.

Strange that this proposal comes from you, you were so much against strong negative stack bonus . Fear and Chaos stack atm, so with demon+medusa you would give -10, kraken+demon -15. I still like the capping system I proposed, with fear+chaos max 5 negative bonus, unless chaos is >5. With this system it could work to have chaos creatures (maybe with very small values like 1 or 2, that would stack with fear up to 5).

I don't worry about the 3-4 units plunder issue. I've often plundered such towns and simply built the exact same unit there and turned a profit and sometimes a loss It just depends on your plunder value and how much value the other units have. It's a gamble.

I think it's a problem anyway. If spiders cost 600, instead of getting 1000 and more, you'd get 800 or so. You would plunder them anyway and you would not buy them again (I wouldn't buy them at 600). You'd get less money (not much less) and you wouldn't see spiders anyway. Instead, if spiders were the only production, I would probably not plunder them (I'd save in city walls and town hall levels), and use them even if they're not the best unit. Same with Gryphons (as they are now, I'd plunder them even for 400 gold). Now Spiders and Minotaurs are basically the same unit, I'd like to see some difference, one more expensive and powerful (I'd like the spider to be this one).

[hatchfactory]

said Sandworm chaos bonus (or fear in disguise)



icon also shows in battle window

[KGB]

LichKing,

Strange that this proposal comes from you, you were so much against strong negative stack bonus . Fear and Chaos stack atm, so with demon+medusa you would give -10, kraken+demon -15. I still like the capping system I proposed, with fear+chaos max 5 negative bonus, unless chaos is >5. With this system it could work to have chaos creatures (maybe with very small values like 1 or 2, that would stack with fear up to 5).

Well after Piranha said he didn't want a capping system I figured the only way to change his mind is to show how overpowered the current system is without capping. The easiest way to do that is to get a high fear unit (+10) or a Chaos unit (+5) so that reaching +10 or better in Fear+Chaos is quite easy and very overpowering so that the system can get the caps we both agree it needs

I think it's a problem anyway. If spiders cost 600, instead of getting 1000 and more, you'd get 800 or so. You would plunder them anyway and you would not buy them again (I wouldn't buy them at 600). You'd get less money (not much less) and you wouldn't see spiders anyway. Instead, if spiders were the only production, I would probably not plunder them (I'd save in city walls and town hall levels), and use them even if they're not the best unit. Same with Gryphons (as they are now, I'd plunder them even for 400 gold). Now Spiders and Minotaurs are basically the same unit, I'd like to see some difference, one more expensive and powerful (I'd like the spider to be this one).

That's your personal choice of course. Other warlords may make different choices. The choice I make always depends on the game parameters (in a 2 player game where the expectation is to get 20+ cities I almost certainly keep those units while in a large 8 player game where the expectation is to get 6-8 cities I probably plunder them even if they were the only unit in that city). As far as buying them again, I'd buy spiders for 600 LONG before I'd ever buy a Wizard at 1000 hence my comment about Wizards need to cost around 700 (you should be happy because you can then buy lots of them ).

I'd hate to see the neutrals completely reduced to if you see a Spider or a Gryphon it's the only unit in that city. Some variety and randomness is fun so that you don't know what else may be in the city besides spiders or gryphons or what ever else one might plunder. That's why I suggested an average gold value per city level so that multiple units can appear in lots of cities, not just good/powerful ones.

Beta5 with quests may force you not to plunder because I assume those 'occupy' quests mean occupy and not pillage/raze so that you have to take a specific choice (DLR enforced this). Assuming every hero can quest (which I hope) that may mean a lot less plundering if you are questing.

As far as Spiders/Minotaurs go, they are very close to the same unit. I'd like to see the Minotaur move 16 so that it's an offensive weapon. That would help differentiate them. Whether that's enough remains to be seen. Other possibilities include a totally new skill for the Spider since I assume none of what we've proposed here will happen until Beta5.

KGB

[kenc80]

i just wonder if capped bonuses will confuse beginners. Then again, being uncapped will give the new players a harsh lesson in stack-math when they are devastated by demon/sandworm/pegasi/hero stacks...yikes!

[Jeremy]

Command plus stack bonuses were traditionally capped at +5 (+25 under d100 system). That didn't seem too confusing. Of course, that was such a high cap, that it didn't matter except with uber-stacks.

[magian]

I strongly support stack bonus caps.