Warpedia updated

[piranha]

I've been working some on the warpedia the last days trying to bring it up to date. Items and units are now fetched from the database instead of just written text.
The units are from the beta5 army table in case you want to check it out and discuss what units are overpowered and which ones are useless crap .
I've been changing the upkeep quite a lot on the better units to keep it with the same level as the one turners. What I mean is if a 1 turn unit cost 3 upkeep that should be 9 for a 3 turn unit and not 5-6 like it was in beta4.

[LichKing]

Things I like:

- Gryphon (maybe too expensive), demon (maybe too powerful)
- 3HP on Sandworm/Elemental
- more powerful Spider
- lower cost for B.ram/catapult
- critical on medusa, but 25 STR is too low (35 was better, they're very slow)


Things I don't like:

- difference of 10 STR between spider/minotaur, and almost same cost. Minotaur should cost much less
- unicorn: I'd prefer 3 turns, 25 STR, +2 moves, +10 cancel terrain, +10 morale in forest or maybe move in forest at cost 1 for whole stack (1 of the 2)
- green dragon: +4 moves was good, now it's more anonymous
- new mammoth costs too much (but I like the unit)
- elephant: +2 moves? elephants are slow. maybe -2 moves
- orc/elf: I'd like more +5 swamp/forest instead of +10
- pikemen: I'd like more only +10 open
- eagle: at least STR 15, +20 anti-air
- cost of wolf rider, giant, HvCav, minotaur too high. For me 400, 400 (lower than dwarf), 500, 550.

Archon and Demi Archon names should be maybe switched, since demi- means half-

[KGB]

Things I don't like:

1) Crow - 3 strength is too low, should be 5. This is back to the issue you already fixed in Beta4 where 3 strength minimum means that negative bonus's too often drop weaker units down to 3 strength making them useless. Also the cost of 125 is too much given all the anti-air out there. 100 is fine.
2) Orc - I wish his Critical strike/Ambush was 10. That would mean he would never be an automatic kill against a Dragon or other high level unit in a 1v1 battle because his winning % would be more than 10%. The tradeoff can be reducing his swamp bonus to +5.
3) Wolfrider - Like the extra Critical strike/ambush but the cost is too much, should be in the 350 range.
4) Spider - Yeah, now for 800 and those numbers he will get used.
5) Elemental / Sandworm - Agree with Moonknight. Could even lower the cost to 1000 but that's a minor point.
6) Elephant - Yeah, +15 bonus and +2 moves. Now that will get them not pillaged.
7) Mammoth - Wow, 4 hits!!! This is either going to be WAY over powered or a solid unit. In a city on defense this will be almost unkillable with 40 strength + walls and 4 hits. This is why Orcs need 10% critical strike!
8) Demon - Yes. Could even lower the cost slightly to 1300ish as there will be anti-air to keep them in check.

Things I don't like:
1) Eagle - I agree with MoonKnight. 15 combat and 20 anti-air makes him a bit more versatile. Still think 300 cost is fine
2) Pikemen - Agree with Moonknight. Lower the open bonus to +10 and the cost to 300.
3) Elf - Still priced too high. Should be in the 250-275 range even if it means lowering combat to 10 and increasing anti-air to 12.
4) Sea Serpent - Way too expensive still for a specialized unit. 300-350 range so players can actually invest in them.
5) Giant - 400 range. He brings nothing to the table in terms of bonus's or useful skills. At least at 400 you could justify spending money on them sometimes.
6) Hv Cavalry - Ditto with the list above. See the post Moonknight and I talked about costs. This unit is also over priced. You can't buy/invest in 2 turn units if they cost 3-4x as much as 1 turn units. Especially ones that bring no bonus.
7) Ram - 400 as per the other thread.
8) Yeti - 750. He and Crusader should cost the same as Moonknight and I discussed.
9) Scorpion - lower cost again as per the other thread.
10) Minotaur - Moonknight is right about the overlap. I'd increase move to 16 and drop cost to 600 so that he is an offensive unit that can move with heroes without slowing them down and be significantly cheaper than the Spider.
11) Catapult - 800 as per the other thread. However I do like the +10 when attacking bonus. Fits with the throwing rocks nature.
12) Gryphon - Agree with Moonknight, probably still too expensive given Eagles will kill them in droves. I'd say 900 tops.
13) Wizard - Still costs way too much especially given how much cheaper other things are now. Really should be in the 800 range with Spiders.
14) Medusa - Agree with Moonknight about the Strength being too low. Pegasi are much more likely to bless and can carry hero. So the Medusa at least needs +5 strength to compensate for rarer blessing.
15) Unicorn - 3 turns please, cost 1300
16) Archon/Grand Archon - Agree with Moonknight about the name being backwards. I'd call it a Great Archon instead of Grand. The base Archon should be weaker in strength (25) and cost a bit less (1400). The Great Archon cost and power is fine. However, I have a quibble with Archons powers. They should *not* negate any item command/chaos skill so that items would have value on heroes. Also currently when it says 20, it really means 40. That's because it negates 20 Command AND 20 Chaos. I'd rather the Grand Archon was back to 20 but it was 20 TOTAL from Chaos+Command so that if you had 2 heroes with +12 Chaos and +12 Command only 20 of that would be negated (10 from each) leaving you with +2 command and +2 chaos.
17) Green Dragon - What's his purpose now? Only +2 moves and the Mammoth has better stats with 4 hits especially on defense and only takes 3 turns to make and the Demon (or multiple Demons) are better flying attackers. He needs a reason to exist or his cost needs to come WAY down. I'd suggest back to +4 moves, let the moves stack from multiple Dragons/Elephants and lower the cost to 1500 (slightly more than what the Demon should be).

Incidentally I'd like to see the Valkryie get an upgrade to make her more useful since half the time all her skills aren't in play. Even something minor like a 3rd hit and a bit higher initial pillage (say 60) since she is obviously a hit and run raider with her current skill set.

KGB

P.S. The upkeep costs for the 2-5 turn units are very high. Unless of course you are adjusting neutral cities to generate more than things like 5 and 10 gold. Otherwise 1 3-turn unit eats up the income of an entire city. It would be nice if you used the War2/DLR model where units in cities had their upkeep halved.

[magian]

Umm...the mammoth has 4 wounds and 40 strength in defense?! I will be buying them in probably every game, the 4 wounds alone makes them worth their cost. DLR players will be all over this.

I agree that the eagle would be better with 15 strength and a reduced anti-air bonus.

Like the new demon, 3 turns makes him a bit more viable.

The unicorn has 3 powers now? Do they have swiss army knives tied to their horns? I think they should give the green dragon her +4 stack movement back. The unicorn should be movement 20.

I would reduce the giant's strength by 5 and give him an extra wound.

Spider is worth building now, minotaur is not.

[LichKing]

Incidentally I'd like to see the Valkryie get an upgrade to make her more useful since half the time all her skills aren't in play. Even something minor like a 3rd hit and a bit higher initial pillage (say 60) since she is obviously a hit and run raider with her current skill set.

Don't underestimate Valkyries.. at 5th level they can have already +18 attack leadership

[piranha]

Ok made another update based on your suggestions mainly.

Crow back to 5, cost 100
Orc 8% ambush, swamp: 6
Eagle: battle: 12, antiair 22
Pikeman open 10, cost 300
wolfrider : 20% ambush, cost 425
Seaserpent 450
Giant: 475
Heavy cav 500
Ram 550
Scorpion: 650
Minotaur 675, 15 move
Catapult 850
Gryphon: 950
Wizard 1050
Medusa 30 battle
Mammoth battle 20, +20 defense
Unicorn 3 turns
Demon cost 1450
Green dragon +4 move

Demi archon now Great Archon

Lowered upkeep on some higher units a bit too.

Agree with lichking that valkyrias can quickly become very hard to deal with.

[KGB]

While I don't consider the Valkyrie to be that useful I know she has her fans. I'd rather have +10 Leadership all the time at L5 + be able to 100% search L2 ruins with decent chances at L3 with some UL units. Hence my comment about her needing something unique and that's why I suggested the extra hit and slightly extra pillage skill.

The new numbers look better but units like Giants are still too expensive relative to what they bring especially compared to only 25 more for Hv Calv. At 400 (what a Dwarf should cost as well) they'd be priced right since 1 Giant = 2 Dwarfs. Sea Serpents especially cost too much still considering they are at best 25 strength (in water) and at worst 15 in cities. That's not much of a 2 turn unit in terms of fighting. 350 range and they'll get bought.

With regards to the Mammoth, it's not the attack number I fear, it's the defense number being 40. Find those in a neutral and you might never take it or if your opponent has a few they will be very hard to conquer. It's going to be a Beast with those 4 hits. 25 with +10 defense seems a bit easier to deal with.

KGB

[LichKing]

Valkyrie gets 2 move points for 5 skill points, that's to consider too.

I don't think 2 dwarves = 1 Giant, 2 dwarves are better imo. A 1 turn unit gets double bonuses, gets produced every turn (you could need 1 more unit badly, sometimes), 2 dwarves are much better in attack and better in defense, on hills the difference between 1 dwarf and 1 giant is even smaller. They cost only more upkeep and are slower. Ideal cost were for me 450-500 for dwarf and 400 for giant.

I agree with KGB that Mammoth with 4 hits at 20+20 is deadly (too much).

Ok for orcs at +6 in swamp (I wouldn't like to be blamed ), but elves are really too strong with +10 in forest. +10 anti-air is ok, but in forest they should have +5. Atm they're the strongest 1-turn unit and the most versatile (good attack, good moves, anti-air, forest move and strength bonus). They do much more than other 1-turn units do.

I think the most controversial is still the unicorn.. I don't like much the +4 moves on them. I'd like them more with:

3 turns
30 STR
individual move in forest (cost 1, can carry heroes but not lead armies, like serpent on water)
+10 STR in forest (no morale bonus)
+10 cancel terrain (would cancel anything, but only half of spider's bonus)

[piranha]

Sea serpents are 20 now so they are 20 on cities, 30 on water.

About the mammoth, do you really think you will buy them if they are weaker like 20 +15?
When you have 1300 there are many good units like medusa or pegasi. The medusa have 65% chance to kill the mammoth even before starting the fight. Who would buy a mammoth if its just a bit stronger and an all out defense unit?
It could be classed to the same level as dragons so they only appear in cities that are set to powerful in the map editor.

I think 1 turn units will become quite weak in B5 since so many 3 turn units now have 3 hits, orc is lowered but should really lower the elf too?

[LichKing]

About the mammoth, do you really think you will buy them if they are weaker like 20 +15?

I think 1 turn units will become quite weak in B5 since so many 3 turn units now have 3 hits, orc is lowered but should really lower the elf too?

Maybe you're right, I still reason with beta4 values. By the way if 1-turn units are strong on their own, there's less incentive to buy other units. Also the Mammoth is ok at 20+20, maybe at 20+15 it wouldn't be worth.
I'd prefer 1-turn units to be entry-level units, because they bring already a lot of advantages, but maybe other players don't think this way and they like them being rather powerful.

My opinion is that elves and orcs should get the same terrain bonus (+6? +8?).Orcs cost less and have critical, elves have more STR and anti-air. It's only my opinion though.