Beta4 Bonus System Question

[ZzUu]

What's wrong with that? Dwarves, pikemen, spiders get + 15. Scorpions can even get +20 on their own, just like demons. Eagles have +26 when facing flyers...

[magian]

I think the Red Dragon's morale boost of +12 is just excessive. It was impressive at +2 (OG warlords) which would translate to +10 in beta4. If anything, it should have been reduced slightly, +9 or even +8 would be fine.

It baffles me that the pegasus and the red dragon, two of the best units in beta3, would be powered-up for beta4. What was the rationale behind this decision?

[KGB]

ZzUu,

I pointed out this example because many people have talked about the Eagle being too good or too powerful. I suspect that what the problem is, is that all the bonus's continue to stack without limit. So that an Eagle with 10 strength with it's +26 vs fliers can be boosted by another +30 from Morale/walls/Command to reach 66 against other fliers.

On the other hand, if the bonus system had caps in place to something more reasonable (say +25 on Morale/Command/Walls with an overall limit from all bonus's combined of +30) then Dwarves and Eagles and other similar units could only ever reach 45 (Dwarf) or 40 (Eagle) at their maximum (assuming not blessed). This still allows for a player to boost up his stack nicely but doesn't allow things to get over the top crazy so that the only way to defeat a unit/stack is with Critical Strike.

KGB

[Jeremy]

I think the Red Dragon's morale boost of +12 is just excessive. It was impressive at +2 (OG warlords) which would translate to +10 in beta4. If anything, it should have been reduced slightly, +9 or even +8 would be fine.

It baffles me that the pegasus and the red dragon, two of the best units in beta3, would be powered-up for beta4. What was the rationale behind this decision?

AGREE! Morale of +8 for the Red Dragon would be more than sufficient. The problem with the Dragon isn't it's personal size, it's the bonus it gives to the stack.

[KGB]

AGREE! Morale of +8 for the Red Dragon would be more than sufficient. The problem with the Dragon isn't it's personal size, it's the bonus it gives to the stack.

Actually I think the problem is more that the Red Dragon moves 24 and flies. So it can easily end up in several stacks in the same turn providing it's bonus in multiple attacks on different fronts.

For example there is practically little difference between the Medusa's -6 and the Red Dragons +12 in terms of effectiveness. Consider an 8 stack of all 15's vs an 8 stack of all 15's. With the Medusa making one side all 9's the 15's vs 9's wins 95% of the time with an average of 3.8 units remaining. With the Red Dragon making one side all 27's the 27's vs 15's wins 98% of the time with an average of 4.1 units remaining. So for all intents and purposes these 2 bonus's are equal.

Yet I see no one complaining about the Medusa's +6. And that's because she walks and walks at a slow pace of 12.

KGB

[magian]

It is true that the red dragon's speed and flying ability are huge pluses for the beast. And, I really see no reason for the RD to have 24 movement. A dragon is a ponderously huge creature, 16-18 speed seems more appropriate.

+8 morale, 35 strength, 18 speed and 3 wounds seem like pretty solid stats to me.

The pegasus would need to drop to +4, the crusader to +2.

KGB, its true that folks don't complain about the medusa's fear 6 much, but considering she has fear 5, that isn't too surprising . But seriously, I agree that her lack of legs keeps her under control. I would like to see her reduced to fear 4 though. It seems unfair to give one unit the highest fear bonus and the highest chance of an insta-kill. Reducing her to fear 4 would open the door for a higher level unit with superior fear.

[Yahtzee]

Yet I see no one complaining about the Medusa's +6. And that's because she walks and walks at a slow pace of 12.

KGB

I think another reason is simply because most people aren't doing the calculations so 6 (I know its actually 5 but whatever) appears to be about half as good as 12.

[LichKing]

A negative stack bonus is canceled more easily than a positive bonus (a Pegasus cancels all Medusa effect and give +1).

What's wrong with a strong morale bonus? There are devils to cancel that.

Maybe a unit with a smaller negate would be useful (like negate 2 or 3 for Mammoth or Gryphon).
Medusa is slow, now it will be also weaker (although with critical). I don't think it's overpowered.

[magian]

What is wrong with huge stack bonuses? It makes the units that have them much better than the units that don't.

In the early game, I would rather have one red dragon than two of any other unit. That being the case, I have to conclude they are overpowered.

[LichKing]

In the early game, I would rather have one red dragon than two of any other unit. That being the case, I have to conclude they are overpowered.

Yes, but a dragon takes 5 turns to build, so the deal is with 5 other units. A dragon is a big investment, you can buy it rarely in the first turns.Then there's the risk that the town is attacked, and you have to trash production (spending more money) if you don't want to give it for free to your opponent.

For bonuses, I wouldn't go lower than crusader +3, Pegasus +5 and Red Dragon +10 (devil should then drop his fear).