A few Beta6 things I'd like

[KGB]

Since you are still taking requests that may make it into Beta6:

1) More versatility on the heroes. Right now the heroes are still quite limited in what they do. Basically 95(99?)% of the time all the level up points are saved and put into Leadership/Chaos because those are the only stack skills. If you max those out you probably then take a +1 stack movement or maybe some individual combat/movement. On top of that, the presence of Archons in mid/late game (esp in 2-4 player games where a player has lots of cities/gold to make such units) renders every hero besides VERY high level ones obsolete. It's back to the point where I am taking a hero only for his allies and then disbanding him so I can get another hero offer with more allies. So here's what I'd like to see:

A) The addition of Siege to all 3 heroes. When you accept your hero you'd get an option to put your initial stack points into Leadership (4-Paladin/6-Valkrie)/Chaos (3-DK) or take +3 siege. Then for every 10 points you can add +2 siege (or you can of course still take your leadership/chaos when you accumulate enough points). This means any hero can have value even in the late since the siege can't be negated by an Archon and a hero can build multiple skills.
B) Allow the +1 stack movement to be taken more than twice. Really it should be +1 stack move per 10 points, no limit on how much you want to take.
C) Addition of other potential skills like +X gold per city, say +5 gold per city for 10 points, can take it multiple times.
D) Ability to build the opposite skills (Chaos for Paladin/Valkrie, Leadership for DK) for 1.5X the cost (30 points for +3 Chaos or +4 leadership). This would be handy if you found the right item to stack with your hero.

2) Ruins still function a city terrain and give a +5 defense bonus. As a result you see endless units lurking on them (esp crows) for the +5 bonus. The means they are better than many cities (who have L0-2 walls) and make it less useful to build a defense tower when there is a handy ruin to use. Searched ruins should definitely NOT provide any bonus. Ideally you'd create a new terrain type called ruins and use it for razed cities/ruins and give the Ghost a +5 stack terrain combat value there and give no one a +5 defense bonus on sites.

3) I still believe the Devil and Archon Negate powers are over powered. A minor change to how they work would reign in this slightly while still preserving what they do. That change would be to apply the negate *after* applying the Morale/Fear and Leadership/Chaos for each stack. In other words:

Dragon vs Dragon+Devil: 12 morale - 2 fear vs 12 morale + 10 negate = 0 vs 12 (same as it is now)
Medusa vs Dragon+Devil: -2 fear vs 12 morale - 5 fear + 10 negate = -2 vs 7 (you subtract 12-5 before negating instead of negating and getting -2 vs 12)

This minor change means that the Devil/Archon is still excellent at controlling powerful enemy units/stacks. However when 2 good stacks meet the presence of a Devil or Archon doesn't overwhelming determine the outcome as it does now when you have something like:

Dragon/Kraken+6 Serpents vs Dragon/Devil/Kraken+5 serpents

In that battle, the Devil so overwhelms the other side that it's an absolute slaughter (22 bonus difference under current rules). If you instead subtracted out the Morale/Fear first the Devil presence wouldn't be the determining factor in the battle and you end up with 12 morale - 10 fear vs 12 morale -10 fear + 10 negate = 0 vs 2 (much more reasonable given the units involved are virtually identical).

The same goes for hero battles when 1 side lacks an Archon and gets slaughtered.

Heroes should be the most important/valuable units and they aren't. It's still Devils and Archons.

4) More Items (or allow duplicates of L1/L2 items). Ideally more items with new/unique powers.

KGB

[LPhillips]

Your suggestions are centered around beefing up the heroes in reasonable ways, and I think it's important to begin by stating what you ended with: Heroes are not nearly the most powerful/important units in the game.

Heroes right now are useful and powerful if carefully employed with a good measure of luck thrown in. To be honest, by my limited understanding of the new systems, a generous measure of luck is needed. Increased options for hero customization would indeed be a very balanced step in the right direction.

Suggestions:
1.
A. Yes, but also +stack attack/defend options for varying costs. Perhaps the return of stack terrain bonus options as well. Some people may not be fans, but popping on +2 Open bonus to a mid-level hero with a dragon and some cavalry and ramming/luring a powerful stack was just one of many examples of the viability of that option. This overlaps with 1:D; heroes should be able to take skills they don't specialize in at increased cost.
B. There needs to be some restriction on this to prevent abuse. I don't want to see a level 10 combat hero ferried around the map by a hero who bought the heck out of some movement abilities/boni, maybe with +groupmove items as well. I'm sure a little creative thinking could produce an effective solution. No movement bonus from hero to hero perhaps?
C. More skills means more possible strategies for victory. Again, more options means a more interesting and fun game. Part of beta testing's purpose is to wildly unbalance a game and see what people create that can be incorporated later for a better gaming experience. I suggest testing these hero options outside of your ladder games.

2. KGB, sites are a useful defensible option. I'd rather see sites give +10% instead of a flat +5. Round up to be fair, giving crows +1. Then sites remain marginally useful and not unrealistically absent from the battlefield, but not on par with intentionally constructed fortifications like towers. Thematic additions like +5 for undead on Ruins and +5 for holy on Temples would be welcome as well. I'd rather not see any of this implemented as terrain bonuses for balance reasons, but rather as a flat modifier. Based on a defined creature "race"/category if the thematic additions are made.
So, in a battle of elves assaulting light infantry in a lumber mill, the elves would still have the upper hand, but the lumber mill would weigh in just a little in favor of the defenders. If the elves assault undead hiding in a ruin in the woods, the undead would receive a marginally better bonus. What do you think?

3. Out of my depth; I don't understand the new systems yet. But the described outcome of your proposed changes is favorable.

4. Again, I like where you're going: more hero versatility and involvement in the game, with the added benefit of fully utilizing the item system. There's not much point to an item system if it is not more fully implemented. Blessings and quest/exploration rewards of various other kinds would be a good addition.
I suggest common items which may be found multiple times (maybe there was a smith who made more than one shield), and then artifacts which are unique and far more powerful. A druid's shield which gives +15 morale stack in forest and -10 stack in city, or other such interesting items? A sword which "has an unholy thirst for blood", which will kill the first unit of the stack the hero attacks outright, or the first unit in the hero's stack if the hero has not been in battle by the end of the turn. Of course cursed items either can't be dropped at all, or can only be dropped before initiating movement.

I bet your players can come up with all sorts of ideas if you give us a shot. Just boots that enable a hero to pass over water would be fun.

[magian]

I don't think heroes should begin with siege. Maybe siege could be available for purchase by all heroes, with slower hero classes getting a better deal than quicker heroes.

Still not a big fan of the current system of bonuses negatives and negates. I thought it might grow on me, but I like it less and less.

I would love to have some more interesting (and reasonably-priced) options for hero power-ups. Right now, I do indeed power up command (or chaos) and stack movement. Occasionally I put some points into strength. Even my ability point spending is stale. Paladins get undead lore and other heroes get UL or pillage bonus. Why would I want my hero to walk around on water alone, or fly around alone? Why not just buy a scout and never get pathfinding?

In DLR heroes often had a number of interesting options to choose from. And the hero classes were very different from one another. I find the warbarons heroes kind of bland and not nearly as distinctive.

[LichKing]

Just quick opinions:

A. I don't like much the idea of siege on heroes, maybe on items (lev 3 ruin, cancel 5 walls and + attack leadership)
B. up to 4 sounds good to me, also max 16 moves on the DK
C. it could help, but I don't like it conceptually.. gold out of nothing? I understand items, but hero abilities?
D. I like the idea (but it should be costly)

2. is the ruin architecture any different after they've been explored? I don't think so.

3. this is the best idea!

4. I wouldn't mind too much. Maybe an item that gives flight for the stack.

[KGB]

LichKing,

A. Heroes need some other skill that can be upgraded that can't be negated by Archons. Right now in mid/late level games a L1-3 hero is useless due to all the Negate. Right now every hero is too bland with only 1 path to upgrade (Leadership or Chaos). More paths = more variety. Siege right now is underused as a skill and it's not overpowering since it only has value against cities with actual walls. DLR had a Thief hero whose primary skill was siege (picking locks/opening gates concept) and it didn't over power that hero. This would also give the ability to overcome +15 walls if you could get your hero to a high enough level.
C. I think of it as extracting more taxes from the inhabitants. Either by force or a merchant skill.
D. I think 50% more cost. So a 20 point cost for upgrading Leadership/Chaos would cost 30 points in the opposite path. That's costly.

2. The same argument goes for cities. Their architecture isn't changed either and yet the walls go down and I can raze them completely. Exploring a ruin involves cleaning out the undead infestation. I don't know what your heroes do when they explore a ruin, but I know that mine do the same thing that they do when I click the 'raze' option after capturing a city. They do that because many of those ruins are close to my cities and having skeletons/ghouls/mummies/vampires close by is giving the children of my kingdom terrible nightmares. The fact the heroes get a reward is incidental next to keeping the kingdom safe So there is no reason for explored ruins to give a defense bonus any more because no military power would *ever* leave a complete fortification just lying around for an enemy to use.

4. I would strongly lobby *against* a flight item. This was one of the most overpowering items in DLR and would be in Warbarons. Better to give a hero a 'fly' ability that can never be turned off. The reason is that in DLR players quickly learned the cheese tactic of dropping the item, attacking the enemy and then picking the item back up again so that they weren't 'flying' units and subject to the anti-air bonus. All you needed to do was fly a couple of ground units with you to use against the anti-air units. With a a permanent fly skill you'd have to decide whether to leave the hero out of the battle or not. A much tougher choice given the hero would have to be high level...

KGB

[LPhillips]

I think most item balance issues could be resolved by requiring that items only be dropped before any movement in a turn. This would still allow most non-cheese tactics, including transferring items from hero to hero at the beginning of turns. Thoughts?

[KGB]

LPhillips,

I wouldn't like that and it wouldn't be very intuitive unless a pop up came before every hero move that said 'have you already adjusted your items' (which is kind of silly).

There are quite a few items that are 'attack only' or 'defense only'. You typically swap those at the beginning and end of your hero move obviously. So if you can only swap before moving it kind of defeats the purpose of having both since you won't be able to change back and forth mid turn.

Plus with long times between turns in bigger games I often forget to check every last hero to see if I need to adjust items at turn start/before I move. I only do it right when I am about to attack especially if I need a specialized item (say an anti-air item against fliers I find during my move).

KGB

[LPhillips]

I do see the inconveniences, but there needs to be some restriction to enforce items' downside. I don't know what direction they want to go with this, but if you want to have powerful items that are only good for offense or defense, they shouldn't be put on/taken off within the same round. A hero with an item that gives +10 group attack should never be able to shuffle it for an item that gives +10 group defense at the end of each turn. Allowing people to have the best of both worlds and avoid all item downsides is precisely the thing you objected to earlier, isn't it? The way it was abused in DLR (which I also have experienced first-hand).

Maybe only restrict artifact-category items? In key battles, it will be only too easy to shuffle a really good item around between two or three hero stacks in an area in order to wipe out your enemy.

"Here, borrow my shield this turn" is acceptable. "Here, I just beat the snot out of people with this sword, take it from me Madam Swiss and do the same to a stack or two; ok, now your turn Sir Cheesyballs" is not. Neither is trading out defensive and offensive equipment at the end of the round. There's a reason for items being only good for one or the other, and that's supposed to be for balance.

[kenc80]

KGB: 3) I still believe the Devil and Archon Negate powers are over powered.

First off, welcome back LP...long time no see my friend. I am not so sure that the archons are overpowered. I happen to think they are underpowered. I don't want this to evolve into unstoppable hero stacks. Its a fine line. KGB I get what you are saying about devils, they are, I must admit, extremely powerful.

I like in-game checks and balances like a stack of ghosts, demons or scorps. The swarm bonus is nice and its good that ambush can't be negated. It gives people hope, just like archons against super stacks. If I had my way, Archons and devils would be the way they used to be with absolute negation. I do think the devil is awful fast by the way.

Example, if you've got a couple thousand gold and a couple of back castles making scouts, you can convert those to ghost castles and in 5 or 6 turns have a devastating super-stack killing war machine. Isn't that good?

[KGB]

LPhillips,

I don't like the cheese of swapping +Attack and +Defense items either. It would be best if certain slots could only contain attack or defense items (weapon slot was only attack, shield/armor was only defense). It may be that its like that now. But if not, it definitely should be.

You should however be able to switch between multiple attack items at will during a turn (so you'd equip a +Anti Air if fighting fliers instead of your +Leadership if the anti air was a bigger bonus).

If that was in place then most of the cheese would be out of the game (loaning items for multiple battles would be possible but VERY hard to do since you have to group the heroes together to trade items and that uses movement making it unlikely either stack could move far to attack enemies).

Kenc80,

While I still consider the Negate concept superfluous with Morale/Fear and Leadership/Chaos counter skills already I understand why old time War2 players cling to it

Where it's overpowered now it that it's applied first instead of after the Morale/Fear and Leadership/Chaos is worked out between the stacks. There is *nothing* more annoying than spending 20 turns raising up a Paladin to L9 with +16 Command only to have the opponent pop out a newbie L1 DK with an Archon and attack you. Not only do you get no bonus but the DK gets a -3 against you! How's that fair/reasonable? All I am asking for is the Morale/Fear and Leadership/Chaos to get applied first then the Negate so that your L9 Paladin even though he would get no bonus, the DK wouldn't get -3 against you (if it was a L1 Paladin it would get +4 Leadership since your Leadership doesn't cancel his). This way a Medusa against a Dragon still has value if the Dragon stack has a Devil in it.

KGB