Evolving Hero Strategy

[LPhillips]

You know, Hero stacks have always been the currency of the game. Other than currency, of course.

But in testing the (new?) tutorial against the (new?) AI, I see things have radically changed. The decimal strength system, the complex boni and descriptions: I'm a bit lost. Not on the particulars, but on the overall role of heroes and the strategies and tactics for properly employing them.

So, how has hero strategy evolved in the past 6 months or so? I take it we're not banking on ghost/wolfrider stacks and dragon+bat raids quite so much; in fact there seem to be multiple types of dragons now and many new allies?

I'd like to inquire about 3 aspects of hero use now:
1) Exploration of ruins and early-game expansion, options and rewards for using heroes in various roles weighed equitably (if possible?)
2) Ally acceptance and use as related to mobility, ruins, and mid-game combat. All this talk of Grand Archons, Green dragons etc. already has me confused.
3) Hero combat against human opponents, from early to late game, especially versus other heroes.

I feel like this discussion will be beneficial to many players, not just myself. KGB, Ezras, and other regulars will probably weigh in heavily with well-considered opinions, and I'm looking forward to it. But it would also be good to hear from everyone who has an opinion or experiences to offer. We can all benefit from even small tricks and tactics.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

1) You can only explore ruins with a Paladin. At least if you plan on living through the experience. The Undead Lore for a Paladin is 9. For the other 2 heroes it's 6. With the dice for combat in a ruin set to 12 (instead of 100) you can easily see that the Paladin has a much higher chance to survive. You can add scouts/wizards/ghosts with your hero to increase his odds. Once you reach 12 undead lore you can't die in a L1 ruin (L2 you need 22 and L3 you need 32).

If there are nearby L1 ruins, I normally take a Paladin as my first hero (I am a what was known in DLR as a ruin whore). Usually I will build a couple of scouts to get his UL up to 12 to guarantee success. The gold boost (up to 900 gold) is well worth it especially if one can reach a couple of L1 ruins without going too far out of the way (you can of course get an item instead of gold so you aren't guaranteed gold). If there aren't close L1 ruins or you don't plan on searching any in the early game (focusing on cities with your hero instead) then you can potentially pick another hero (Valkrie is the other obvious choice for the faster move and higher initial bonus). The other advantage of taking the Paladin is that you get XP from searching which other heroes won't because they don't dare so you often level faster.

2) NEVER EVER accept a hero without allies unless the cost is 500 or less. The amount will range from 400-1100 with NO allies. So don't spend 1000 and get no allies. Wait another turn and get that same hero for 500 less or get an ally for that 1000 gold you spend.

Ghosts and Wizards make excellent early game allies. Both offer Undead Lore to allow a hero to reach 100% success immediately on L1 ruins (and shortly thereafter L2 ruins when you can get allies in addition to better items/more gold). Ghosts now fly and can carry your hero which is handy and Wizards travel a long way so on many maps early Wizards can harass an enemy.

Most of the other allies are all unchanged from earlier Beta's in terms of when/why you'd take them. Elementals now have a 3rd hit so they are handy when attacking neutrals if there isn't a lot of distance to travel. I typically avoid the Archon (Blue one) because it's been nerfed down to 6 negate making it pointless unless you are really desperate. Better to hold off for a better ally. Green Dragons I have not seen as allies but I assume you can get one. I wouldn't bother as it has no stack skill other than extra moves which is no where near as important as Red Dragon/Devil/Grand Archons.

3) Hero combat is exactly the same as before. Nothing has changed. Other than the Valkrie now only gets her bonus when attacking (so you must be careful to scout ahead and not get caught on defense). Archons still negate most of the hero powers (at least Grand Archons do, the Blue one only negates a small amount) so they are always extra handy in hero combats.

KGB

P.S. Unlike earlier Beta's, there is a practical limit on heroes of around 6. Once you get to 5 each successive one gets harder to get (less chance despite how much money you have). So you either need to disband heroes so you get more offers if you have lots of gold and want allies or be judicious about what you accept in terms of heroes (their location) and allies (the quality). Since I like a steady supply of ready made good allies (I'd rather spend 3200 gold on 2 Red Dragons now than 2200 to buy production and wait 10 turns to get them) I tend to disband L1 heroes.

P.P.S. Heroes get XP from conquering ANYTHING. Even neutral empty towers. So never take one with your regular units if there is a hero nearby who can snag free XP simply by visiting the tower. It's even better when your opponent continually takes it back with a crow so your hero can snag endless free XP

[LPhillips]

Well, that's a very nice synopsis. Thanks!

I've noticed unit production strategy has changed even more than hero strategy. Some units are now specialized attack/defense, and I like that. Throws me a bit off-balance, but it's a good change. Is it just me, or are orcs the new mass standby?

Same conclusions on the early heroes, so I'm glad to see my thoughts line up with someone I consider one of the best tactical thinkers in the community. Just took a Valkerie to nab fairly close ruins, as I had a starting ghost ally. Thanks for the advice and the practical information about the allies as well!

[kenc80]

Is it just me, or are orcs the new mass standby

Elves are still my favorite cannon fodder bc they get the anti-air. ghosts and yeti are my new fave multi-turn units (not counting devils) yeti -2 fear and only 2 turns and +15 snow bonus.Super nice, better than crusaders & u get snow.

Ghosts obviously for the ambush & ruin. Stacks are a lot more powerful and diversified than they used to be. Until I get to stalemate situations that demand specified stack counters, I like the ghosts bc the ambush cant be negated. LIkewise I'm also not pillaging scorpions if I find them. In fact I love Scorps now. I'm also not as much into pegasi as I used to be.

Hero-wise, I either do Pally or Valk first depending on ruin situation and add a DK later when movement/expansion isn't important and the human fighting really gets going. The -4 is vicious. I tend to be a very aggressive player so i like the valks, others may not favor them. Just my two cents...

[LPhillips]

I tend to be a very aggressive player so i like the valks, others may not favor them. Just my two cents...

Well, your style sure has changed then! Looking forward to seeing it firsthand.

I'm personally digging the griffons. Talk about a solid unit in city-dense maps! I bought production just for kicks'n'giggles in my first tutorial game, and they really make a good expansion unit. Very glad to see enough units and options for players to employ vastly different tactics now in addition to differing strategies.

[Moonknight]

I pretty much always go with the Paladin first, for the UL reasons and I don't like that Valk's leadership is only for attacking.

I like elves and orcs as my one-turn units, love, love, love krakens! (LP, you need to explore with Krakens and Sea Serpents, a map that has a lot of swamp-land or ocean and a lot of ruins, a paladin riding around on a Sea Serpent searching ruins can become very powerful!).

Whenever I can start building a red dragon i go for it, Spiders are extremely strong defensively, Sandworms are pretty sweet with the 3 HPs, and heavy cav seem to be underpriced to me.

It seems like I'm very rarely in a game where my gold gets built up to over 2500 to get good allies with a hero, but maybe others have not had this same experience.

Production I usually always plunder: Eagles, Battering Rams, Crusaders, Elementals (I do like them as an ally with hero offers coupled with a Valkyrie), Elephants, Medusas (Again, as an ally with a hero i like them), Archon, Unicorn (although I haven't explored the Unicorn in the latest beta yet), and Green Dragons (Unless it's later on in the battle and I can pair them with a Hero to get strength up towards 75 with the third hit).

[magian]

Are people saving up gold for hero +ally offers these days? I usually just buy cheap lone heroes and spend the majority of my gold on unit production. How much does one have to save to get 2+ grand archons/red dragons/devils as hero allies?

[kenc80]

Magian - I start to see the good allies above 2500 gold or so.

I'm not like KGB where he disbands heroes to get more offers but its a lot cheaper and faster sometimes to get a hero offer with 3 devils or archons than build the production...

[KGB]

Magican,

I save for allies. As Kenc80 noted, you have 2 ways to go. Spend <500 on a lone hero or spend 2500+ on good allies. Typically I get a 2nd hero ASAP with no allies. But after that, I won't take a 3rd unless he brings allies.

For example in a recent game I spent 3200 on a hero and 2 Red Dragons (I disbanded the hero since I had more money and wanted more offers). Spending 2200 to buy dragon production and waiting 10 turn to get 2 Dragons is too long for me since in early-mid game I may win/be in mop-up mode before 10 turns passes. Plus I'm an instant gratification kind of guy

A lot of course depends on the game you are in. In a large 8 player game you won't have lots of gold to save for those expensive allies so it will be harder to get multiple offers and production looks more attractive. But in games with 4 or less players its very easy to get a steady supply of good allies if you don't mind disbanding.

KGB

[Negern]

About ruin search there is one change that has not been mentioned yet. The hero must be at least the same level as the ruin to be able to enter. So if you get a hero offer + 4 ghosts in a city nearby a lvl 2 ruin - remember that you wont be able to search it unless you level up. Happened me once, and I'll never make that mistake again.
Also remember that valk and pala is both stackable with DK, but not with each other. The one with the stronger bonus is the only one who counts.

Demanded gold varies a lot. Sometimes a hero with no allies can cast more than 1200 - and sometimes a hero with two wizards costs 900. Doesn't vary as much for the more expensive heroes, but there is always a risk that you get a cheap hero offer. The offers does not correlate with your total amount of gold (not what I have seen, at least). So you could have more than 10k and get a offer for less than 2k. For offers with three or more strong allies (demons, devils, dragons etc) it's almost always over 3k needed. Close to 2k can be enough for single strong allies, but it's not very common. Usually they come with multiple ghosts, wizards, elementals and such when in that price range.

Talking about elementals they are the only unit that can move on lava-terrain (except heroes with the move stat-maxed). 3 move per square, can not lead others. Can be good to have in mind. Good for unexpected sneak attacks.

I usually go for the pala first, then dread knight. I use valks mostly if I'm playing a large map 1vs1 and have been able to lock up a big area with many neutral castles. Then the valk can run around there for a while and later on hopefully make a successful ninja sneak attack with a green dragon and demons.

More than that, I agree with KGB when he says that it's better to wait for good hero offers than buy productions. Of course there are exceptions, ex. if you need a unicorn (that does not come as allies) or have an no production-castle just standing around. Most of the times I wait with the expensive productions until mid or late game.