Middle Earth [6.0] is submitted for review.

[Jeremy]

New map: Middle Earth [6.0] by Jeremy.
Map editor link: Middle Earth [6.0]

[LPhillips]

First, let me say that I appreciate the effort and research put into this map. It's quite nice to be able to play the war for middle earth in Warbarons form. However, I have some objections to certain features of the map as related to balance, and some suggestions about fixing them.

I conquered the first iteration of this map handily via sea movement and roads using Harad. It wasn't even a contest; I just rolled over a 1v3 FFA. Even in this version, I see a lot of room for balancing the various spawns. The Iron Hills player starts with the same income as the others, but with only dwarfs, a full 3 turns away from the nearest city. That's a bit absurd, as the Mordor player can conquer up to 3 cities his first round. That orangey-yellow dot in the top right is the Iron Hills... Yes, Dwarf units, from that spawn. The 10-turn conquest area is basically 7 cities. And that's for me, a super-fast-expanding player.

Harad, Gondor, Rohan and Mordor are all in fine position for competition as far as early conquest distance. There can be some argument that the other players will benefit from their isolation and not have to fight early battles, but the disparity in income, hero experience and army size is really insurmountable. Luck of the draw with randomized starting locations ensures the battle will be far from fair. The Iron Hills should probably consist of two cities with better income than 40, and Isengard should have some reasonable access to the central portion of the map through the mountains in less than 6 turns.

Addressing the scenario itself: Mordor and Harad are both within easy striking distance of Gondor's lands, and Rohan will need to fend off Isengard in a short time. It's pretty true to form as far as that goes. However, the balance is impossibly slanted against Gondor. Harad's lands are way too rich. There should be at most 2 cities in the desert, and 4 on the coast. Currently the Harad player will be far stronger than the Gondor player and far more defensible just by turn 6. Defending Gondor as it is now is absurdly impossible. If Osgiliath were present as a high-level city between Mordor and Gondor (obviously closer to Gondor's capitol and certain to soon belong to that player), and there were far less ports (or none) in the area, then the Gondor-Mordor battle would be less of a freebie for Mordor. That still leaves the difficulty of fending off a much stronger Harad who has half a dozen easy access points to Gondor's land. So either Gondor needs to be made stronger and richer, or Harad should be made weaker and the access points to Gondor much more restricted.

A large portion of this could be corrected by adjusting cities' incomes, but there should still be some changes to the topography that would actually be fairly accurate anyway.

[hatchfactory]

On previewing this map, I was impressed by the amount of detail given in putting the books down to map form. Having spent a bit of time in the map editor myself, I admire the work put into it and I imagine it was a blast to make. I also appreciate the pioneering efforts in trying out the new scenario features in Beta 5.
That said I have to say LPhillips review is quite spot on. I understand It is a story based scenario, not a melee even-steven deal but the fact is it's still a competetive game and the "fun" factor goes downhill the less balance there is.
A couple of things ...
Starting Retinue and production .. the obvious examples
Good guys = Dwarves - 5 dwarves producing dwarves and Catapult in a flat un-populated land
vs.
Bad Guys = Mordor - A demon?!?, Heavy Calvary, Ram, 2 orcs. producing orcs, ram, Ghosts?!?, and Demons?!? and down the road you have your choice of giants or Shelobs babies.

Starting Gold and Income - Start in Gondor a negative income, 600 bones in your pocket, buy a hero and your down to 100 bones. look at the demon and hero (maybe a spider or 2 by the time he gets to you) headed your way, you pee your pants because all nearby cities only produce scouts and light Infantry and have incomes of 10 or if your lucky 15. So no relief for you, What an ally in the area? segway into

Starting Positions - Not much can be done if being story accurate is the goal. Game-wise, contrary to what some might think, starting really close to a team member isn't a good thing, really hampers expansion if you have to share cities (Gondor - Rohan) especially when your tightly surrounded by enemies. (I don't suggest changing locations, just pointing out imbalance maybe to be made up elsewhere)
I'd argue story-wise, even though Mordor was supposed to be Mighty and on coming Doom. Gondor had the strength to hold Saurons forces at bay not be so weak of a position.

Just my feedback, I wasn't going to say anything, but I really like this map and would like to see a revision with more balanced gameplay in mind, no need for mirror perfect balance but keep it fun (no one likes the odds stacked that bad against them).

[KGB]

I agree with Hatchfactor and LPhillips,

I've played Gondor twice now (out of 4 times playing on this map). In both games, I've literally run out of money VERY early (and I have 6-7 cities and only 25 men and yet my income is down to 20 gold a turn). And definitely Mordor/Harad swarms them without any hope of beating back the onslaught regardless of Rohan help.

Gondor needs the following things:

1) Much more initial money in the capitol. At least a 60 income and some of the other nearby cities need to raised to 20-25. If they are to play defensively early that's fine, but they can't run out of money to afford basic units like Hv Infantry. Gondor should have a big advantage in money over Mordor/Haran to compensate for the army differences.
2) The nearby city Lebenin should have Pikemen over Lt Infantry. Gondor needs good units for defense and Pikemen are perfect for that.
3) More starting units. I'd suggest 3 additional Pikemen that can be used to block the bridge at least with 30 defense. That buys time for Gondor/Rohan. Also change Hv Inf to Pikemen in the Capitol would be good.
4) Removal of several ports in the south (there are 7, needs to be at most 3) and move some of those cities off the coast to prevent raiding by Serpents/Kraken. 1 coastal city is fine.
5) At least 1 more L1 ruin that can be searched early for gold. Right now there are 2 ruins and if neither has good Gondor is in deep trouble affording men.

Harad needs the following things:

1) Change the Elephant to Mammoth. Elephants are ungodly with their huge bonus on open land (basically everything in the south making them mobile L6 walled cities). Mammoths fit just as well thematically but aren't stack boosters.
2) Only 1 Mammoth city, not the capitol and 1 other just below it. Mammoths/Elephants are very good units so they should have to pay for a 2nd one. The city below can just have Lt Infantry (or the Mammoth if the capitol doesn't)
3) Drop the Siege unit. Giving Harad siege and an Elephant/Mammoth is a bit much in the capitol. Lower it to a Ram.

Mordor needs the following things:

1) Take the spider production out of Minus Morgul. Yeah, I know Shelob was there. But she was not aiding Sauron, merely living nearby. A spider defending the city makes sense (making it harder to take) but not Spider production. Let Mordor *pay* to get Shelobs aid by building spiders. Just Orcs there.
2) Take the Demon out of the capitol. A single starting Demon unit represents the Nazgul. Multiple Demons is a bit much especially given how powerful Demons are and the fact Rohan/Gondor lack anti-air.
3) The Gates of Udun don't need siege if the Capitol has it. Right now that city is just a great source of gold to plunder for better units (esp since Orc pillage is so high).

Iron Hills needs the following things:

1) More starting units. At least 8 total.
2) To help the speed problem, place a move temple just outside the capitol, say 4-5 squares down the road toward the other cities. That way units can all get +2 moves as they start out from the capitol.
3) I'd switch Laketowns bridges to face the West (or at least the North). Right now it takes an extra turn to get to Laketown which sucks for the Iron Hill player.
4) Overall the Iron Hills player needs more cities. Other than 2 close ones, there is NOTHING reachable for at least 4-5 turns after that besides the Wood Elves. That's a LONG time to only have 3 cities while others have 4-7 if not more by then. At least one more city to the south of the Capitol is needed as suggested by LPhillips.

Isengard needs the following things:

1) As LPhillips said they need access to the East portion of the map. From north of the water through some hills and into the Forest. That way they need both bonus's to get through in force. I would make the access north of the 2 cave cities and come out north of Fanghorn Forest so that neither they nor Rohan can get to each other too early.

Rohan needs the following things:

1) Out of curiosity, why did the port north of Rohan get removed. The one that let Rohan and Saruman reach each other? Right now Rohan and Saruman can't ever attack except by air. That doesn't seem right especially since they were bitter enemies.
2) Also one of those 2 L3 ruins (left one) should now be a L1. Rohan doesn't have any L1 ruins to search which sucks for them.

Lastly, now that ruins have real defenders, there may be a need to tone down the number of L3 ruins. Those are VERY hard to search. I'd consider changing some of them to L2 or L1 and only have 1 or 2 L3 on the whole map (Shelobs Lair, Moria, one by Dol Goldur).

KGB

[LPhillips]

I think KGB's suggestions are spot-on. However I don't know if Mordor has to be trimmed too drastically, if Gondor, Rohan and the Iron Hills are improved and the number of ports and coastal cities in Gondor are properly reduced. Mordor is in a tough spot even with strong units if the randomized starting points give him both Harad and Gondor as enemies.

I would probably go a bit further with making Gondor defensible and suggest one coastal city with a port in the south and just one other port to the far west for Gondor, and thread the bridge between Mordor and Gondor properly through the defensible city of Osgiliath. That's both accurate to the scenario and important for balance. Gondor could then easily reach Osgiliath first, and you can still attach a port directly to Osgiliath. It needs a fair spawn of course. Also, to alleviate Gondor's gold problem, their land should be rife with villages. That was the case in the original story, as with Rohan.

As it is right now, Mordor can take on Gondor and Rohan single-handedly. But when they are strengthened, Mordor's current strength may not be so overwhelming. As for Harad, I think KGB's suggestion of decreasing their spawn strength is probably fairer than mine of decreasing their available cities.

I agree with Hatchfactor and LPhillips,
...
Iron Hills needs the following things:
...
2) To help the speed problem, place a move temple just outside the capitol, say 4-5 squares down the road toward the other cities. That way units can all get +2 moves as they start out from the capitol.
3) I'd switch Laketowns bridges to face the East (or at least the North). Right now it takes an extra turn to get to Laketown which sucks for the Iron Hill player.
KGB

One typo correction for clarification, and one note on the scenario: in The Hobbit (one of my very favorite childhood books), Dain's army from the Iron Hills marches exceptionally quickly over long distances, especially for dwarves. So it's accurate to give them a +movement temple by their home cities.

Anyway, this is receiving so much attention because we've all enjoyed the fruit of the time and effort put into the map already. Thanks for giving us this scenario!

[hatchfactory]

I don't know if Mordor has to be trimmed too drastically, if Gondor, Rohan and the Iron Hills are improved and the number of ports and coastal cities in Gondor are properly reduced. Mordor is in a tough spot even with strong units if the randomized starting points give him both Harad and Gondor as enemies.

I believe as of Beta 5, this now being a Scenario, Jeremy has set Teams Fellowship vs. Evil so starting points are no longer random (The TudorEngland game your in looks to be set up differently than the Scenario settings, A bug swapping dwarves and Harad maybe). In the Scenario setup as it is designed Evil Strong Harad, Strong Mordor and Isengard will always surround Fellowship Rohan and Gondor (as it should be.) Definitely lessens any challenge to Mordor and gives evil a monopoly on the south east. Even if things were evened out and I was one of those baddies, I'd co-ordinate with my team-mates an early three-way smash on Gondor/Rohan (their natural targets) as they have to share cities they will expand only slightly faster than a single player (only benefit being 2 retinues). After that the game is a down-hill ride from there. So even balanced, Gondor/Rohan have to play defensively unless they have a trick up they're sleeves (double retinue blitz on Mordor - tried and failed miserably).

[LPhillips]

The problem is that the way it's set up, it's like two kindergarten students trying to defend their lunch money from 3 high school students. They should at least be in the same league or given as defensible a position as in the story. Especially since there's no One Ring to save the day for Good.

If you really want a hopeless defense scenario, I'd suggest a time limit, after which Good wins by default if Evil hasn't conquered 80% of cities. This would represent the destruction of the One Ring and the end of Saruman. But the map would still need a lot of balance work, plus making the northern players functional participants.

[hatchfactory]

Especially since there's no One Ring to save the day for Good.

That's it! all the good guys need to do for victory is get the ring to Mordor, A switch That activates when the "Fellowship" player gets to Mt. Doom and other players support by clearing the way. (not fully serious)

[Jeremy]

Thank you all for the amount of time you've put in to thinking about this!

I want team play to be a possiblity, obviously, but I also want 8 person FFA to be possible on this map.


Thank you for these suggestions – I’ve gone over them all, and implemented about half of them. (I won’t go into most of the details – but at the end of the day, I put in about 50% of the suggestions)
I upped capital city money for everyone, especially Gondor. Gondor starts with more money, too. Removed a city in Harad (I had originally added it by player request.) Removed Spiders and a Giant production for Mordor. Moved some ports in Gondor. All this should help Gondor.

The Ford of the Isen between Saruman and Rohan, should of course, be a Ford with docks on both sides – it was an error that it had been removed from the later version. It’s back.

I really want the experience of each position to be very different – which is, of course, a real challenge to balance. Thus the constant tweaking.

A few justifications, which you may or may not agree with:

Saruman
Saruman can, and often does, attack Rohan. But I also set up the board to encourage him to attack the Fellowship (happens in the story), and western Gondor. The threat to the Fellowship is important, as the Fellowship position needs more than one threat.

Dwarves
The Dwarves are supposed to be 2 turns away from taking the Lonely Mountain – and I believe they are. Actually, now with the Movement temple, they definitely are.
They are deliberately supposed to have the slowest start in the game. And I’d still rather play the Dwarves than the Orcs in either a team or a FFA battle. The Dwarves slow start is there to balance the fact that they only really have one neighbor (the Orcs), and that neighbor is smack-dab in the middle of two opponents.