Desert combat

[LPhillips]

Hi, I have a simple suggestion for the cavalry:

From a technical standpoint, heavy cavalry actually have a rough time in sandy desert terrain. What with heavy armor, heat, stocky chargers, and unsteady footing, they travel fairly slowly. If they must attack across dunes or other sandy ground that isn't firm, they lose the advantage of their mobility and become vulnerable.

Light cavalry, on the other hand, is what ruled the desert in Africa until 60 years ago. They travel well in that situation, and they retain a huge mobility advantage over infantry and heavily armed cavalry.

So in conclusion, heavy cavalry should be at a disadvantage if anything in most desert situations, and light cavalry should have a significant bonus. It's backwards right now.

Also, should sandworms be able to carry elephants and other massive units? It's a fun and powerful tactic, but it's a bit *too* powerful. And it doesn't make too much sense. An elephant can't get onto a worm and a dragon can't be made faster by one, right?

[KGB]

An elephant can't get onto a worm

Depends on the size of the Worm These ones are meant to be the Worms from Dune which were a hundred feet long or more. An Elephant could easily be carried by one.

and a dragon can't be made faster by one, right?

On the other hand this point is right on. I've mentioned since Beta2 days that fliers should *never ever* be able to travel on any terrain (roads, ships or via unit bonus on a specific terrain) for a cost of 1. There is no logical sense to that as I don't see birds flying along roads in order to migrate around faster They simply fly direct line to their destination.

KGB

[LPhillips]

I know Dune from middle school, and technically speaking you'd need some heavy equipment to get anything other than a human being onto one of those critters.

I think the overarching problem is actually the very high movement of the worms. Dwarves guiding others along for 1 cost is fine because they have a base move of 8, but the worms are much too powerful right now. I'd suggest setting the base movement at 12, at the most. Maybe 10. And I think that's quite generous. If they're Dune worms, they shouldn't be able to leave desert terrain at all! The ability to drag a hero and crew around up to 16 moves at half cost across wasteland is really too much.

10 moves for them would be equivalent to 30 for units with them, 20 for other desert guides. That still makes them a very fast, very effective unit in their home ground. Also, it would reflect the worm's incredibly slow process across other terrain (which as I said should be impossible if they were in fact Dune worms). They'd still be a huge move boost to anything in the desert.

[KGB]

Actually the base move is 14 for the Worms. The map just has a handy move temple to get them to 16.

I don't think 14 is excessive in normal terrain otherwise they'll never get used. Obviously on sand it's a huge benefit, much as Dwarfs are on hills. This map is specifically designed for them and other desert units. It would be like making a map with 95% hills terrain.

Maybe the map just needs a bit less sand

KGB

[magian]

On that map, worms are king. I believe that all the starting locations have a worm city nearby, so it doesn't benefit anyone in particular. The thing that really needs tweaking on that map, is the starting locations for the various teams. Lphillips is stuck between 2 enemies (as is hatch in another game), the other team doesn't have a comparably bad starting position.

I agree with Lphillips about light cavalry, they really should get a desert terrain bonus.

[LPhillips]

Actually the base move is 14 for the Worms. The map just has a handy move temple to get them to 16.
KGB

If you hang tight a turn, or simply save 2 over, you have 16. I did a little responsible research

I don't think 14 is excessive in normal terrain otherwise they'll never get used. Obviously on sand it's a huge benefit, much as Dwarfs are on hills.
KGB

They shouldn't be useful outside of desert terrain. 14 movement is as good as most units, even though these creatures can't even survive outside of desert. Dwarves have 8; some people were even trying to get it lowered from that or have the 1/2 movement bonus not shareable. If dwarves had 14 movement everyone would be screaming their heads off.

We don't use Kraken to travel on land, now, do we? I don't have a problem with the map we're playing on. In fact, as I said in the game, I found the use of the worms with elephants to be quite devious, even brilliant. But I do believe it's unbalanced. No stack should get 28 base movement in a round on non-roads. The main reason I'm suffering in that specific game is the combination of 2-on-1 with a hit while my armies were still disjointed. So the game exposed a problem, but I'm not here to whine. I lost some units by underestimating my enemy. Moving on...

We shouldn't have to make desert a very rare terrain to balance the possibility of using these units. With a green dragon, the player gets a further 8 moves. With a relatively well-leveled hero, another 4. With a blessing, that brings them to 44 movement in desert terrain. Cutting cost from 3 to 2 is not a very big deal. Cutting cost from 2 to 1 is doubling movement speed, and that's why a unit with group move 1 should never have over 10 base movement points.

Limiting worms' movement to 10 would cut their stacks to 20 base move on desert (still very, very good), and make them less useful on other terrain (where, again, they shouldn't even be able to live/travel). It would also make Medusas more viable.

[hatchfactory]

Whilst playing warbarons, perusing through the units and their bonuses, in my head I make scenarios in which a certain units would have their hay-day. "If a map looked like so, that would make such a bonus useful. " The movement and fear bonuses of the sandworm don't see much use in most maps and it caught imagination. "what if?" In the wiki it says "If you are interested in making a official map try to think about strategic possiblites to create a map with interesting game play."
While I think there are several if not many maps in which to measure overall balance of units, "The Waste" isn't one of them, nor "Strongholds", "Cthulhu's Judgement", "Ice/Desert Showdown" or any map with a majority of 1 terrain. I make my maps to hopefully bring something different to the table, to change up the gameplay, and keep players strategies dynamic. If the same old strategy worked for every game, you wouldn't have much fun after 10 or so games would you. In "The Waste" the Sandworm will and should always be king, even a necessity, and so was the map design (I'm ok if the same old boring red dragon techniques don't make or break the game ) and production is provided close to every players spawn. Yes that makes sand the same as a road, and yes you can get to your neighbor very fast, but lookout towers are all placed quite frequently throughout the map and should be used. (quite useful and under- rated structures). The issue I have currently with the map is how team spawns are created, better gameplay would not leave 1 player sandwiched, either all or none. I don't know how I will remedy that problem.
I'm sorry you had to witness the potential of the sandworm when introduced to the map (as I hope you will still play it, and use many elephants and sandworms) I'm not a great strategist, just had the advantage while plopping down map tiles, spending lots of time thinking how I would best play my own creation.

edit :: I totally missed magians post which said the same thing with fewer words except

magian - "the other team doesn't have a comparably bad starting position."

actually it's mirror in both games, 1 isolated player from both sides. Tests showed 3v3 teams evenly spaced out every other positions, yet hosted games have set up differently. I could assign sides if it was a scenario but I hesitate doing so as it has become a ladder map. I don't know about Scenario/ladder compatability.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

They shouldn't be useful outside of desert terrain. 14 movement is as good as most units, even though these creatures can't even survive outside of desert. Dwarves have 8; some people were even trying to get it lowered from that or have the 1/2 movement bonus not shareable. If dwarves had 14 movement everyone would be screaming their heads off.

I don't think they are useful outside of the Sand. I've never bought them as production in any game and in only 1-2 games that I recall have I built one despite their city wall negation. And prior to Beta6, I pillaged them in every map I found because the gold was better used on a Red Dragon/Devil/Archon. In Beta6 with the 3rd hit they are now in the gray range of units for me. As in it's about 50/50 to whether I pillage or keep them on maps other than 'The Waste' (basically if it's a 1v1 where I will get 20+ cities I keep, if it's a larger game where you get about 10 cities I pillage). Perhaps you feel differently on other maps. Remember they still take 3 turns to build.

As for Dwarves, the reason everyone would scream if they had 14 moves has NOTHING to do with them getting hills group move for 1. It would have everything to do with them being 1 turn, 15 strength, +5 attacking making them 20 strength 1 turn units with enough move to take advantage of that +5 attack bonus. If Dwarves had Lt Infantry stats (14 moves, 10 strength, +10 in hills only) with group move 1 on hills I could care less as there are many other 1 turn units I'd rather make unless I was on a hilly map.

But I do believe it's unbalanced. No stack should get 28 base movement in a round on non-roads. With a green dragon, the player gets a further 8 moves. With a relatively well-leveled hero, another 4. With a blessing, that brings them to 44 movement in desert terrain. Cutting cost from 3 to 2 is not a very big deal. Cutting cost from 2 to 1 is doubling movement speed, and that's why a unit with group move 1 should never have over 10 base movement points.

You are slightly mis-stating how the movement works. What they get is not 28 moves (or 44 with all the other goodies), but rather 14 squares (or 22 squares). It's a small but subtle difference since movement isn't transferable to other terrain (44 real moves is much better than 22 squares on desert since it can be used to move in other terrain). Also, if the units that are grouped with the SandWorm don't move as fast (Pikes, Dwarf, Hv Inf, Siege etc) they don't get their base move boosted.

Personally I think it's great that on Sand, that you can move 14 or 16 squares a turn. One of the things about Warbarons that I find really restrictive compared to DLR is that it's impossible to make decent fast moving stacks because the game perpetually limits anything that might increase movement to constantly lower it to the 'average'. So the result is that you can never have a strategy of a player making 'light, fast moving units' to rapidly overwhelm another player who is making 'slow, strong units'. Nor can you get hero stacks moving at faster speeds (say an average of 24 moves) in order to defend your lands/expand etc. All things that were possible in DLR to break what I call the 'trench warfare' mentality that develops mid game in Warbarons where it's impossible to do anything undetected/easy counterable because enemies can't move faster than you can react.

To me units are only seriously unbalanced if:

1) They are so underpowered that no one is using them (Unicorns)
2) They are so overpowered that everyone is using them at the expense of everything else (Lt Calv in Beta2, Hv Inf in Beta3, Dragons in Beta4)

The Sandworm fits neither of those categories. It maybe slightly unbalancing on Desert but it's not enough to think it needs a major overhaul or else the game is broken.

Limiting worms' movement to 10 would cut their stacks to 20 base move on desert (still very, very good), and make them less useful on other terrain (where, again, they shouldn't even be able to live/travel). It would also make Medusas more viable.

Making them move 10 would make them useless anywhere else. They'd be pillaged in an instant in any city and any map other than the Waste. Just too slow to move with a normal stack. Anything that doesn't move at hero rate (14) is useless as a 3+ turn unit that might go in a hero stack since you don't want the hero moving slower than necessary.

Not sure if they could live outside a desert in Dune. The whole world was a Desert and it's been a long time so I don't recall if they could be moved to another terrain.

KGB

[LPhillips]

They died when moved offworld, and they died off on Dune except for the one worm kept in the tiny leftover desert. Their larval spawn isolate and secrete water to create an environment for the mature worms.

Anyway, I do see how it's interesting and nice to have units that are perhaps unbalanced in their natural terrain. Maybe that's the point of having varied terrains after all. Things don't need to be balanced in all situations, after all. That keeps things interesting. So, you've convinced me.
Again, I don't have a problem with the map. In fact, I'm about to kill Hatchfactory's second attacking hero. I'm not upset about the game. But I did feel it necessary to bring up this subject and see what everyone has to say about it.

Let's get back to the other points: Light cavalry should have a good bonus, and heavy cavalry should have none in desert.

[hatchfactory]

Let's get back to the other points: Light cavalry should have a good bonus, and heavy cavalry should have none in desert.

I definitely think there should be a 1 turn sand unit, and also 1 for snow.