Heavy Infantry

[Igor]

I don't know am I right or wrong, it looks that Heavy Infantry is very powerfull unit with +10 in defending.
This is 1-turn unit, only 200 money to buy. A lot of them are seen almost in every game. When 10-12 H.I. is in a city, it is very difficult to take this city without a hero stack.
May be to make them +5 in defending, or cost 400 money, or 2 turns to build? Just a thought after a couple of games against (and with) H.I.

[piranha]

Anyone else who thinks this guy needs to lose some of his defend value? I think he could drop to maybe 7 or 8 at least.

[KGB]

I like abusing his +10 defense skill. But apparently everyone else does too.

Igor is right that in a city these guys are extremely hard to take out having 25-40 strength value depending on wall level.

I'm not sure what the issue was with him before only having +5 defense. He just needed to be cheaper than 200 gold. I'd vote for 150 cost and +5 defense or 200 gold and he is 12 strength with +3 defense. Anything more than +5 defense and he starts to be better than units like Pikemen which are really the ultimate defending infantry from a military perspective.

KGB

[piranha]

I always thought he was a bit pointless when you could just go for a dwarf or pikeman and get the same def but ok I'll change him to a 150 guy and only +5 defense. He is too good right now.

[magian]

Yeah, I just clued into the fact that heavy inf now have +10 def (after an attack on one of KGB's cities). I agree that +10 is a bit too good.

I never much liked the 10 strength +5 def heavies. What about 250 gold for a +5 city bonus instead?

[LPhillips]

Absolutely, completely, adamantly disagree.

Heavy Infantry has an insane upkeep. It's entirely uneconomical to keep them around with that upkeep unless they retain the +10 defense. Otherwise it's often better simply not to produce units from a city than to produce those (unless you have less than 8 cities of course). Actually, that's often the case even now if your income is too poor to buy other production. The only reason the Heavy Infantry sees any action at all is his +10 defense, and utilizing that is not "abusing" it.

1) They cost too much to keep sitting around on defense. Compare Light Infantry at 1 upkeep (appropriate, don't nerf please!), and you can have 4 of them defending for 40 strength and 8 hp for the same price as one Heavy Infantry. It adds up very, very quickly with turn after turn of lost income. Even a Pikeman which has 15 strength all the time with 25% less upkeep and a +10 on the most common terrain of the game is far better.
2) They are only good for defense.
3) So, they're extremely costly to use for defense, which is the only thing they're good for. Lowering their defensive ability will make them utterly useless, where right now they're a mediocre unit at best.

Igor, It's your own fault if you attack a stack of Heavy Infantry with an inadequate stack. Hell, you're better off just going around and letting them waste away their funds. Maintaining these units for defense is extremely expensive, and the expense needs to pay off. Heavy Infantry isn't remotely overpowered! It is just situationally useful like any other unit.

KGB, Heavy Infantry aren't comparable to Pikemen (for the purposes of the game). Pikemen are decent for defense, yes, but they are not specialists in it. They are not the true one-turn defensive unit as you implied. In this game, Pikemen's specialty is strongarming your way across open terrain (which is the majority of terrain in the game). If anything needs to happen in 1-turn units right now, it's to lower the Light Cavalry's open bonus to +5 and add desert bonus +5 as well. That would really shift Pikemen forward into their niche. Heavy Infantry are the only defensive specialists in the game. In my opinion, we'd be privileged to see a similarly specialized offensive unit in future versions, similarly high in upkeep. Something like a "Berserker" unit. Something really lopsided like 5 on defense, 25 on offense, 14 moves, 5-6 upkeep, 400 gold. Of course the advantage to early expansion would need to be carefully examined, but they would be severely disadvantaged on other players' turns and in upkeep if they accumulate.
As far as historical accuracy, it's a bit period/location sensitive, but the pikes/hi are pretty much flipped. If they truly are European pikemen and heavy infantry (shields + swords,spears,axes) then the stats just need to be completely switched; heavy infantry's shield wall making them dominant in open terrain and heavy armament slowing them down; pikemen the faster units with high defensive capability.

Piranha, If you do this to Heavy Infantry, then you'll have to lower the upkeep to 2. But then you're just displacing Light Infantry. No sane person will make Heavy Infantry unless they're completely desperate. Smart players with sufficient other production or funds at their disposal don't stack them up on defense even now.

Math:
Turn 1 HI 4 upkeep
Turn 2 HI 8 upkeep 12 total
Turn 3 HI 12 upkeep 24 total
Turn 4 HI 16 upkeep 40 total
Turn 5 HI 20 upkeep 60 total

You see how quickly Heavy Infantry become nonviable economically speaking. The only thing making them slightly worthwhile now is their defensive specialization.

[Igor]

LPhillips, it's too easy to get 10-12 H.I. in a city and much more difficult and expensive to create a stack which able to win them.
I see the target of war like not to accumulate big sum of money, but to defence own cities and to take neutral and opponent's cities. Than more than better, just to 80%.
Upkeep is not a reason not use a unit. It looks like price to buy, strength and movement points, and turns to produce a unit mean more.

One else thought about Heavy Infantry. May be cut his moving to 10? Just to be balanced with Pikeman 9 and Dwarf 8.
Pikeman and Dwarf are probably not often bought, and they are used if they already are in occupied city. They are too expensive to buy.
Is it necessary (or not) to make them cheaper to use more often? Something like 275-300 for Dwarf and 200-225 for Pikeman. Just to make real choice between them and often used Heavy and Light Infantry.

[magian]

I agree that 4 upkeep is too high, but +10 def is also too high. Both should be reduced.

1 turn units with large upkeeps are annoying. I often forget that a city is building dwarves and they take a huge chunk out of my income. Balancing your budget was never the primary focus of the warlords games... not sure why warbarons should be any different.

My ideal heavy inf would be.... 10 strength, 12 movement, +5 in city and open, 250 g, 3 upkeep.

[LPhillips]

Igor,
You're not following my point. We're talking about a defensive bonus, so the only time it comes into play is when the player is on defense. It's not easy at all to maintain 10-12 HI in a city, no matter what their cost or production time is. If you or anyone else builds masses of them, they're being foolish and paying heavily for it. They're good in their proper use, but not at all unbalanced. The defender has the disadvantage of not choosing where battles are fought, the attacker does that. Don't attack the heavy infantry?
And you're just wrong about upkeep not being important. You're wrong about war not being about accumulating money. War runs on money. Warbarons runs on two things: money, and production. Quite realistic! You're right; it's more advanced than Warlords 2 in that sense, because in War2 you didn't have enough cash nor uses for it. But DLR and other turn-based games like Might and Magic run on money.
Warbarons is about money: net income and bonuses, like ruin rewards and conquered money. Money determines what units you can buy, and what hero offers you can accept.
Warbarons is also about production: what units you can produce, and how many. So the number of cities you have and the quality of their production are the other key points.

No, lowering other units' cost will not help. It will just ruin 2-turn units. One-turn units are mostly very well balanced. Pikemen aren't chosen because there are other units which do their job better, and because players aren't creative enough to use them well. Light Cavalry's bonus is too high at 8. 5 would be perfect, and would justify giving them their proper desert bonus.
Magian: If you give Heavy Infantry +5 in cities and open, they really will be broken. They are the defensive specialists. Right now they're useless at +5 defense and 4 upkeep. The upkeep is right for 10, it punishes players effectively for massing them. Giving them +5 in cities and open effectively gives them +5 to both offense and defense, making them truly dominant and unbalanced. Dwarves can lead units through hills at 1, they're extremely mobile and effective in their proper place. Lowering Heavy Infantry to 10 or 11 might be OK because they're defensive anyway, but only if they retain their proper +10 defensive bonus.

Actually, lowering Heavy Infantry to 10 or 11 move might help Pikemen be used.

[magian]

I actually don't really mind dwarves having a relatively large upkeep (although I would prefer a larger production cost and lower upkeep). This is because dwarves are a specialist unit, and are very valuable if you need their particular skill set. However, heavy inf are a staple unit. In every warlords incarnation, heavy inf are not a specialist unit, they are a basic unit, stronger and slower than the light inf, but still a foundation unit. You should be able to support large numbers of them. Sure, they should be more costly than light inf, but not 4x the price.

+10 def,still too high.