Slipstream [4.0] is submitted for review.

[Draxus]

New map: Slipstream [4.0] by Draxus.
Map editor link: Slipstream [4.0]

[ezras]

this map is a lot of fun to play. It can make for some interesting strategies to test out but it's short and fun with all the ruins/item wars.

[LPhillips]

How are items assigned to ruins?

I noticed when spawning in the top left that every reward from the level 1's seems to be an item (I'm at 4/5 now), and at the bottom right everything is gold so far (6/6). Now this is just from two games, but the odds are still pretty heavily against that. Anyone else have a similar experience?

[Draxus]

As far as I am aware they are random. Is there some way to make them semi random (Choose gold or item) without putting a specific item in? Maybe I just didn't see the item. I have had game with more money than I could do with and then some that were item heavy. Either way it changes how you play the map depending on what you get if you are a ruin hunter.

[LPhillips]

... if you are a ruin hunter.

I'm sorry, but that just made me laugh. This game has as many ruins as cities, and there's no hunting to be done. They're just right there in the main playing field

The towers help a bit with mitigating the effect, but I find that the cities located directly in front of the entrance to each player's area become sites of trench warfare. The game simply centers around who grabs the city in front of the other player and fortifies it first, binding the game up. It makes for a very linear and boring map, ruining (imo) the work you've put into it. I for one won't be playing it after finishing the games I'm in (possibly my only two 1v1 losses on record, as I've been victimized by players who knew the way it works, and I have no interest in collecting blind wins by such a cheap tactic). I'd enjoy playing it again maybe if you find a way to overcome this one major predicament.

[Draxus]

That is why there is access to the lava flows in the north and south of the main areas, through the guard towers, and every city but two in the interior. A number of heroes and fire elementals can have access to almost all cities on the interior which completely negats the trench warfare effect. Even one fire elemental or hero popping up behind lines can cripple a side when they leave all the cities behind empty thinking them secure. Just depends on how you play it. Need to look at the map and think, be less single minded in your approach. You need to see the lava as a highway for certain units to ambush the other side from behind, or as a river with all the cities in the interior being port cities, not as a barrier.

About your complaint of losing, I think you are being a bit cynical LPhillips, it's just a game. If you care that much about your record in non-ladder games then why join testing maps that are being developed? In a game we are playing named "Still Testing", you complained to me that I changed the guardians in the center, which was the least of the changes I made. I am indeed changing this map trying to balance it and make multiple strategies viable. It was between the 2.0 and 4.0 version of the maps, both of which you can see on here. I am sorry my "cheap tactics" are trying to improve and balance this map. I assure you I was thinking, "how can I screw over LPhillips today" when I made the changes. I fail to see how that is the maps fault that you didn't see the many changes and lost a hero stack.

The map is labled 4.0 and the game you were referring to was on 2.0 I believe, both submitted. You are free to look at it before and during play. You are free to make any assumptions you wish. The main changes between the versions are changing the path on the right side to keep them from expanding faster than the left side, changed all the resource buildings to plains since there were more on the forest on the left side making them harder to conquer, access to the lava flows was cut off from some cities on either side that I didn't realize had access, I upped the guards in the towers to retard entrance into the center and encourage use of the lava flow in the north and south, gave access to the lava flow from all but two cities in the interior, increased the guards in the cities as they get closer to the lvl 3 ruins, added an additional lvl 3 ruin on each side in the middle and balanced the number of lvl 2 ruins on each side. The defenders on the lvl 3 ruins have been upped and there are signs in the interior warning that the cities get progressively harder. All of this was obviously a cheap trick.

In another game I am testing on this map I lost all my units in the first few rounds losing every single damn battle, around 4 or 5 in a row, even though they were are over 80%. I lost that game, not through any lack of my skill, but it happens. Regardless, I apologize for your fallen hero. Services to follow.

And the ruin hunter comment wasn't saying people had to "hunt" to find them. Some people will actively go after them, especially in the center, and some will concentrate in invading the other side and press the issue instead of wasting movement north and south in the center for the lvl 2 ruins. Some will try to go into ruins right off the bat, even without a ghost or a scout, and risk the lvl 1 ruins with a paly and some will skip the first ones til they are guaranteed a victory so as not to risk the hero. So yes, some people are more ruin hunters than others regardless of the map layout or city/ruin ratio.

You seem anti trench warfare, even though that isn't 100% the only way to play this map, but I wanted a map with a huge amount of ruins that were not off the path to make a super stack game of giant battles in a short period. Super stacks can be fun but it is annoying playing for 20+ rounds to get em, longer to get a fully equipped hero with items. On this map you can get all the cash to buy units/heroes and all the items to super charge em in 10 rounds or less or your money back. I you do not like this map because of this, that is your choice, but it seems to be working as I meant it to. You get lots of items, high leveled heroes but there are multiple strats to get to the enemy, and you don't know what the other side is doing strat wise. Like a game of paper rock scissor where find out what the other shoots 6 or 7 rounds in.

[LPhillips]

Well, I think you're getting a little overly aggressive in your defense of your map. But I'll skip all the personal comments and addressing them individually, even though some of them are completely false. It's not worth it. Briefly, I do think when changing a tower from 2 griffons to 3 griffons, a medusa, and a dragon you should include some warning in the version changes. I don't care about the record, but it's silly for someone to complain about your map being broken if they always lose. I always win, and cheap tactics defeated me on this map twice, proving skill and creativity in approaching the game aren't the problem here. That's the point I was making.

As for your map: I like the concept of building super stacks in short time, having lots of resources available, etc. But the fact of the matter is that the game is over when one player seizes and holds the city in front of the other player's towers, just as I said. You know this, which is why you did it in my game. Note that my comments were posted before you did that, because others have done the same thing. This one flaw in your map design ruins it. You need a bigger playing field for players to employ their super stacks. Just look at Daradorne Valley and you'll see an example of a rich map with enough terrain to have a real fight.

Elementals are a 3-turn unit, and they're the only unit capable of crossing lava. They also have slow movement and crossing lava takes 3 points. It's absurd to say that giving lava access to the other player's lands is a balancing factor, because getting a couple of elementals into the other player's lands (even if you can pull it off, which will be by turn 12 or so with their movement, and only if you spent 2100 getting double production very early) is not going to help you after they have plundered the middle and their city count is 50% higher than yours. It just becomes another vulnerability to the player who does not hold the middle.

I'm sorry that my criticism was offensive to you, but it's just criticism. It's not mean-spirited, and it's not because I'm upset about losing. I lose, it happens. Why did I join a test game? Obviously I wanted to help you test. Why did I come and give you constructive comments, including objective criticism? Because I wanted to help you improve your map.

The situation with the point-blank approach between the cities doesn't elevate to trench warfare. It's more a first-come, first-win situation. No warfare to be done.

[Draxus]

I don't care about the record, but it's silly for someone to complain about your map being broken if they always lose. I always win, and cheap tactics defeated me on this map twice, proving skill and creativity in approaching the game aren't the problem here. That's the point I was making.

Dude, get over yourself. Main point seems to be, i can't win, therefore tactics are cheap and map is flawed. Regardless of the map, that is a LOT vain. Yes there are other tactics and yes they work. I have played a LOT of this map against a lot of oppoenent trying different tactics. Ezras gutted me with a single hero with items and lava walking from behind. It can work. And I am still tweaking it. Such as massively reducing hills around the lava flows in north and south to take less time to cross and increasing the guards in the towers to give people that time. You are upset at the guards because they beat you even though they are there to encourage the other tactics, which you say you want. This entire thing seems to stem from you being beat. Next time I make 20 some odd changes to a map I will spend 45 minutes making a sign for every single little change so that no one has to take the actually time to LOOK at a map first. That would be asking too much. And no I am not done with it yet, and yes, I will still change. Let the cheap tactics continue! (Sarcasm if you didn't notice) Good news, you don't ever have to play it. Take your over blown ego over a game and go win somewhere else.

My comments have been overly long simply because of my visceral reaction to your vanity. It's silly. And so are you. Its just a map, for fun. You aren't having any, so stop playing it.

[LPhillips]

Draxus, chill. I'm not going to get into that crap with you.

My suggestion for improving the map would be to move the player's exits to the exact opposite of their spawn. So the right side player enters the center from the top right, and the left player enters from the bottom left. That should fix the problem nicely.

And a bit of advice about forums: This is text; it does not convey emotion nor intent very well. Don't assume the extreme negative about others or you'll just make trouble for yourself.

[Draxus]

Saying how it took you 3 posts to actually give constructive feedback besides, I lost therefor it's flawed, you'll forgive me for thinking of you as a bit of an instigator. When someone comes off with that level of arrogance it does tend to rub people the wrong way, even in text.

Putting the entrance right across the starting point would disincentivize exploring south in the starting area and simply move the trench warfare issue you hate so much to the same are in the center of the center area. I am already trying to give reason or time to explore the entire side before entering into the center, hence harder guards to beat before you can enter. I can't see why you would explore south when you would want to conquer as much of the center before you opponent could to secure your power and build up forces behind the clashing point.

What Ezras and I have been talking about it taking the hills away from the north and south and connecting the lava flows there so that fire elementals and heroes can cross quicker and have more access to the map through lava. This increases the odds that this strat works. The other option I was thinking was to put the entrance to the center at the opposite side as the starting point for each so they would have to travel the whole length of their side to get to the middle. Downside is it basically turns the map into two hallways and may reduce the amount of strats depending on the lava layout and if I make a spot for flyers to get by over mountains.