Demon's swarm ability

[Argammon]

Is there any way to cancel the demon's swarm ability? Because if not, the demon seems to be overpowered at first glance. If you have more 4 or more demons you basically get a flying str. 65 unit in just 3 turns.

Maybe I am missing something, but why should I even bother producing other high level units?

[Moonknight]

Argammon, there is not a way to prevent the swarm ability. Many of us have stated that the Demon is too powerful, but some anti-air production and items help counteract them.

[Argammon]

I don't know. The eagle is, according to the wiki, an air to air combat specialist. Eagles take 2 turns to build, demons 3.

4 demons (str 65) should easily beat 6 eagles (str 30).

[KGB]

Argammon,

They do easily beat 6 Eagles. Of course Demons cost 1450 to buy and Eagle only a few hundred. You are better off with Ghosts if you want to kill Demons.

Still, I've come to the conclusion that Demons are the ultimate end game unit due to their ability to reach 65 strength on their own with no need for blessing or any other unit/bonus being present. They probably need to go down to 20 strength, +7 swarm bonus (up to 5 times). This would let them reach 55 max strength with 1 more Demon needed than now. They'd still be great units even with those stats.

KGB

[Dreadfeather]

I probably would NOT buy demons if their swarm effect was reduced.
It costs 1450 gold, a good chunk of money that you have to save up for, and then it takes
3 turns x 4 demons = 12 turns to get a stack of four. NOT easy to do, even in later stages of the game.

Wizards (two turn build) with +15 anti-air for a total of 40 (not including wall or hero bonuses) are my preferred defense against a demon swarm. And they move FAST to react to any threat

[Argammon]

First of all, 40 is still a lot less than 65. Moreover, the demons can hide on water/mountains and play hit and run.

I would DEFINATELY still buy demons if they were adjusted according to KGB's suggestion. Heck, I would cripple them even more.

Yes, 1450 is a decent amount of money. But compare the demons to the other units you can buy for that price...

[KGB]

I agree with Argammon, even with my reduction they are still a very good buy.

5 Demons (15 turns) at 55 strength vs 8 Wizards (16 turns) at 40 strength still wins 63% of the time. Currently with 65 they win 91% of the time (can't lose). So the reduction there seems fair especially given Demons can hide on water/mountains etc as noted.

As far as cost goes, 1450 buys the Demon and 3 Demons with +21 bonus will be 41 strong. That's stronger than any unit now (Red Dragon is 40). To buy a Red Dragon costs 2200 so the Demon is a cheaper option for same strength and it comes 2 turns faster. Compared to the Green Dragon (4 turns, 35 strength, 1800 gold, +1 Hits) which is also a good fighting unit the Demon is a good buy. So I think the Demon is still going to be bought plenty of times with those reductions. The unit that benefits the most from the reduction is the Gryffon which right now at 950 is really weak compared to a Demon because it gets it's +20 bonus only in a city and even then is a 45 strength unit (gets slaughtered by the current 65 strength Demons).

However you definitely *won't* be buying Demons on smaller maps (50x50) or on midsize ones (100x100) with 4+ players because it will take a long time to get 5 of them. But on the mid size maps with 2 players or the largest maps (150x) with any number of players they are a very viable option with the reduction. Plus you can always get 1-3 Demons in hero offers to speed up the acquisition of 5 of them for a super hero stack.

All the 3+ turn units are more or less specialized now in that they are useful on some map sizes/terrains/game situations but not so useful on others. That's probably how it's always going to be and is IMHO a good thing as it's impossible to balance all units for all map sizes/terrains/game situations.

KGB

[Argammon]

Very good post KGB.

Edit: Alternatively, it may be interesting if 1-2 units would be able to cancel the swarm ability. Then, you could leave the demons as they are.

[KGB]

The ability to cancel out swarm would be too powerful. It would render the swarm units useless because you'd be vastly overpaying for them if they didn't get the Swarm skill (for example why would you ever pay 650 gold for a Scorpion at 15 strength when you can get a Giant for 450 that is 25 strength).

Now a unit that reduced swarm count by 1 (so if you had 3 demons/scorpions they were treated as only 2) would be OK.

KGB

[kenc80]

throw two ghosts with 5 demons now and you have an almost unstoppable stack. I wouldnt risk my hero on it.