Unit updates for version 0.8

[Maze]

Piranha,
I would then opt for

+5 (5 demons), max 50:
30,35,40,45,50

The +10 from 10 for one demon to 50 for 5 demons I don't like at all.

If +7 I would prefer to see it as 30-37-44-51, i.e. having the first demon with strength 23+7 and having max swarm at four units. (or 29-37-44-50 if 50 is the magic number :p )

[LPhillips]

30 +5 to 50 is very nice.
Let's not forget price differences for units like Griffons. It's never fair to compare without considering the ability to purchase Griffon production cheaper and use them individually. I've had great success burning enemy cities before they have even expanded, so that those looking to overwhelm with masses of demons lost to a single city's Griffon production.

Every unit has its own use. Demons have been a heated debate because they are such good all-rounders, and the game was a bit stale when that was all people used. The real problem with demons isn't their strength, but their mobility. If they were a bit slower they'd be less abused.

What about these other changes? Red Dragon at 75 plunder was pretty awesome. It's thematically accurate, but I understand if you believe it is too powerful. I see Devils are not to be altered. Are you waiting on the implementation of more heroes/abilities before re-balancing bonus/negate units? They are fairly satisfactory now, except for the worthless overlaps (like +2 fear on Devil).
Why the reduction on Heavy Infantry? They're not very powerful even now; that will make them rather useless. Will you be changing any of the severe drawbacks like their upkeep or slow movement to compensate the 20% strength nerf?

[kenc80]

I like piranhas 55 cap. Lets not nerf the demon too much. we need a good swarm unit against super heroes.

[Argammon]

To stop heroes you should use a stack of ghosts and not swarm units. Swarm units are good allrounders that should, as I said, lose against specialist stacks.

[KGB]

Back after a few days holidays. A few comments:

Demon: I think jumping up by +10 per Demon is too much regardless of whether the max cap is 50 or 55. For future potential swam skill in a 4 or 5 turn unit I think +7 for a 3 turn unit works well given the 2 turn Scorpion is +4. As for a max cap value, I think my proposal that started a Demon at 20 strength added +7 per Demon up to 5 Demons and capped at 55 is a good starting spot for 0.8 since it will take 4 Demons to equal a Gryphon in a city. if that still proves to be too good, it can be easily lowered to 15 strength, +7 per Demon and a +50 cap.

Green Dragon: Yes. I would be happier if went to 45 base strength so that at 4 turns and 3 hits it would compete with Demons in battle since it is a fighting unit.

Hv Infantry: I agree with TheVic. Not sure why it's getting lowered to +8 when it's needed for defense against flying units like Demons/Gryphons and sea units like Serpents/Kraken. I see much less Hv Infantry use than ever before and all the initial outcry has long died down as players have indeed realized how expensive they are to maintain in large groups and how useless they are on the attack.

Unicorn: Why is it getting an upgrade to it's Negate skill? I already use this unit all the time for the +3 Negate and Negate terrain skill over Devils (which are only needed for Red Dragons). Making it +4 just makes it that much better now that you are making it cheaper to maintain and move faster?

KGB

[Ahla]

I don't think the demon is too strong generally as it is now. Building demons slow down your growth a lot. It costs 1450 gold and then you can't really use what the city produces for the next 12 turns if you want to maximise the bonus. Basically, starting to build them in 1 city on turn N and then in another city on turn N+3 (still requires a decent cash flow) will give you 5 demons at N+9. Cost is obv 2900 gold.

To get str 65, you need to:
Build at least 4
get them to the same stack
make them survive and stay in the same stack

The last two is not as easy and convenient in practice as it might seem.

Sure, Str 65 is very high, but they are not unstoppable by any means. Wizards get str 40 against them, and are fast enough to catch them. If they are hiding in mountains/unaccessible water, use eagles with str 30. 8 wizards take down about 2 demons, 8 eagles take down ~1,6. The same goes for HI behind city wall 10. And this is without any sort of boost. If your enemy has managed to get 2+ demon cities and build a stack of them, you must have done something during that time, right?

Another thing to keep in mind is that when a demon stack fights, the losses are demons, and to replace the losses you can only use demons. Super stacks along the lines of paladin+DK+medusa+red dragon/pegasus+4 one or two turn units will take the cheaper units as losses, and can be replaced by pretty much any unit you happen to have nearby.

Maybe a single demon is not weak enough at str 35(after all a unit with swarm should be weak in smaller numbers), but it is risky to attack with it. Risking to lose it might delay your super stack by 3 turns, and it is slow enough as it is.

They might be too strong on some maps where flying is very useful and you reach a threshold in city numbers quickly. Changing them from 25 +10(4) as it is now to either 20 +10(4) or 15 +10(5) is propably about right. At 5 +10(5) I don't think I will build any more demons. Possibly if cost to buy the production is reduced a lot (say to 500 or so), but I still think they are too slow. Unusable until you get at least 3 or 4, and still borderline. Scorpions will be the relatively stronger swarm unit at 15 +4(5)

On the other changes, I think boosting the green dragon is good, but maybe still not strong enough? And I don't think the HI needs to be weakened. It is basically only good for defending cities, and if a pikeman/dwarf is nearly as good at it, why build HIs at all (apart from not affording those two units)?

[LPhillips]

Ahla,
Heavy Infantry is being changed most likely because some people obsessively complained about it. That gets attention. Logical arguments defeated every complaint, and no one was ever able to demonstrate an imbalance, but that didn't stop the complaining.

Your points about the opportunity cost for using Demons are well put. However, a 65 base strength unit is extremely powerful. A dragon or a slightly leveled hero is enough to max the strength at 75. I don't know how familiar you are with the dice system, but the difference between 65 and 40 is impossible to overstate. If you have a reasonable expectation of collecting and deploying a full swarm, there's currently nothing that can compete with it.

A +10 swarm bonus is pretty extreme, so it surprises me that you used that as your starting point for analyzing the demon swarm. It seems that most people are in favor of a more modest bonus, like +5 or +7. A cap of 50 or 55, with 4-5 units is quite reasonable without being the ultimate word in stack composition.

[piranha]

Heavy infantry is now back at def 10 (which I prefered too )

Demon going to be battle 20, +7 per demon so max is 55.

Unicorn is back at negate 3 instead of 4 but keep the extra move and lower upkeep.

What are your opinion about he mammoth? I used them once on outlands when I was going to invade the ice land.

Any other unit that needs some attention?

[Ahla]

So it is now 20 +7(5) for the demon? I guess that is a little bit on the weak side, but worth a try. Btw, what was it before it became 25 +10(4)? If i recall, nobody built them at that time. Not quite sure here though.

Was about to suggest the possibility for a map creator to ban a particular unit on that map, but that is in place now, right? If he goes through all cities and set them to be able to produce anything but demons, there would not be any, except for hero allies.

Lphilips,
Demons hitting 75 is very nice. That extra boost come from a hero in most cases. No point in building red dragons if you have demons. I guess an ambush defence is the only good way of stopping that. A strength 50 would have 1 in 7 per hit, which is pretty bad. Didn't realise the difference from 65 to 75 before I started to play with the numbers a bit.

+10 per demon is extreme yes, but what I like about Warbarons is that it is extreme. Using the right units the right way gives very good results. Maybe +7 is still enough though.

[SnotlinG]

Was about to suggest the possibility for a map creator to ban a particular unit on that map, but that is in place now, right? If he goes through all cities and set them to be able to produce anything but demons, there would not be any, except for hero allies.

Correct. Also if you create a scenario-map you have the possibility to control possible units on a per side basis.