Unit updates for version 0.8

[KGB]

Ahla,

So it is now 20 +7(5) for the demon? I guess that is a little bit on the weak side, but worth a try. Btw, what was it before it became 25 +10(4)? If i recall, nobody built them at that time. Not quite sure here though.

I build them all the time. They are literally my *go to* unit. In games where I start with a high income (1300+) I often build them in my capitol on turn 1 if I can sack some gold/search a ruin, otherwise I get them started on turn 2. That way by turn 10-12 I have an killer stack that is already strength 60 (hero and 3 demons) which lets me mop up neutrals or my opponent really rapidly making up for the slower expansion due to Demons in my capitol.

Now, I don't play 50x50 maps where the game is over by turn 15 about 50% of the time. So obviously on those maps Demons make far less sense (you are better off waiting for allies hoping to get the Red Dragon) but on any other size map, the sooner you start Demons the better because having the top stack of strength 70+ (hero and 4 or more demons) is key and if your opponent has one and you can't counter with your own Demon stack/Ambush Stack/TONS of Wizards you will be mopped up in short order.

What are your opinion about he mammoth? I used them once on outlands when I was going to invade the ice land.

He's an absolute terror to face when you are trying to attack one, especially in a neutral. Definitely not unbalanced but at the same time I never buy Mammoth production (though I do sometimes use ones I find in neutrals on maps like Outlands) because the nature of the game is offense, not defense. If anything he can be a bit cheaper to encourage more use.

KGB

[Ahla]

Ahla,


I build them all the time. They are literally my *go to* unit. In games where I start with a high income (1300+) I often build them in my capitol on turn 1 if I can sack some gold/search a ruin, otherwise I get them started on turn 2. That way by turn 10-12 I have an killer stack that is already strength 60 (hero and 3 demons) which lets me mop up neutrals or my opponent really rapidly making up for the slower expansion due to Demons in my capitol.

I tried this once and was shown why it was too slow. Sure, I misplayed them a bit, and maybe he was lucky to find a good anti-flying item, but don't think it really mattered. When a dwarf attacks at 68 (not even in hills ), demons didn't feel so powerful anymore.

[KGB]

Ahla,

That was a fluke occurrence. Probably happens 1 in 100 games because the best a Dwarf can normally be is 20 (blessed) + 5 (attacking) + 30 (max bonus requiring HIGH level hero + dragon) = 55.

The +30 bonus can be countered quite nicely with Archons/Devils while nothing can counter the Demon's power. Also his stack would have required all those things (dragon, high level hero, special item) while yours required nothing but Demons. That's a large advantage since Demons are simpler to get in masses than other powerful stacks.

Don't give up on the Demons quite so quickly.

KGB

[LPhillips]

What are your opinion about he mammoth? I used them once on outlands when I was going to invade the ice land.

Any other unit that needs some attention?

The mammoth has its uses. I think any defensive unit is going to be used far less than offensive units, at least by competent players. Mammoth would be a perfect mercenary-type unit, as one can act as a "ferry", allowing a stack to cross dangerous territory with near impunity. But once you've got a few, you don't need that production anymore. Of course no defensive unit is going to see much action.

I suggest some adjustment to Heavy Cavalry in Desert. The reasons are twofold:
1) Game Balance: Heavy Cavalry is the last word in stack fillers for desert. It's easier to employ and more effective than scorpions, and it's a fast unit even when penalized by sand. This seems wrong.
2) Realism: Heavy Cavalry (also known as Western Cavalry or Heavy Knights) were notoriously bad at desert combat. Heavy armor and harness wore down both rider and horse, and the heavy war horses were less suited to the desert. They had terrible traction due to the extra weight (it caused their hooves to sink into the sand), and their water consumption was higher than any other force deployed at the time.

My suggestion is to remove the Desert bonus altogether for Heavy Cavalry, and give them more dominance in Open terrain. This goes hand-in-hand with adjusting Light Cavalry, and I suggest 10base +5open,+5desert. Reasoning:
1) We need an effective one-turn unit for desert. Perhaps even with non-penalized movement (but "cannot lead others"). They'd still be far slower and weaker than Scorpions, but they'd be the effective one-turn desert unit at 15 strength.
2) Light Cavalry ruled the desert from the end of Roman dominance up until the 1930's. That's a period of roughly 1300 years of uncontested ass kicking, from swords to rifles. The superior mobility and the general effectiveness of lightly laden warriors with few needs made them an incredible force in desert warfare. Their helplessness in the game's deserts is perturbing.
3) Lowering Light Cavalry to 15 strength in Open still leaves them a powerful force, but more importantly it increases the gap between them and Heavy Cavalry. You'd see more use of Heavy Cavalry than ever if you did this, and Light Cavalry would still be used for the same things they are now. Namely quick reinforcements for your stacks during expansion and a throwaway harassment unit in Open terrain or behind enemy lines.

More than anything, we need that one-turner for desert warfare, and Heavy Cavalry's dominance of the desert is a huge pet peeve to me

[piranha]

LP: I've recently read about genghis khan and the history of mongolians so I totally agree. Are you thinking that light cav should travel desert at move cost 2 (lead others)?

About the heavycav, should it get something else if it loses desert?

[Argammon]

I can't understand how Ahla says a str 55 demon is still on the weak side. I know that I am repeating myself but imo a str 55 demon stack is still to strong. You can still combine it with a hero/red dragon/elephant on grass etc. to reach a very high str. easily.

55 would be ok if the demons would be capped at str 55 no matter what. As they are not capped, please go down to at least 50.

Edit: As for why I think 55 is to strong please read my old posts.

[KGB]

Piranha,

LP: I've recently read about genghis khan and the history of mongolians so I totally agree. Are you thinking that light cav should travel desert at move cost 2 (lead others)?

About the heavycav, should it get something else if it loses desert?

I think LPhillips did not want Lt Calv leading others in the desert. The scout can already do that so the Lt Calv should just get move cost 2 for himself. Also I would recommend the Lt Calv retain the +8 bonus in the open/desert rather than +5. At 15 strength they are just the same as Dwarves/Pikemen. They should at least be better than that and be reasonably effective at fighting defending HV Infantry.

Not sure what else to do with Hv Calv. They already have +10 bonus in open and +5 in snow. Maybe they can just get a +5 in desert since they could still charge there but would be not as good as Lt Calv and they can't move well either.

You can still combine it with a hero/red dragon/elephant on grass etc. to reach a very high str. easily.

Argammon, but this is true of any units. So if you add +10 from a Dragon, your opponent can add +10 to his own stack with his own dragon. So if the Demons are 55 and lets say Hv Calv are 35 (grassland) then adding +10 to both stacks makes it 65 - 45. Believe it or not, that's better odds for the 45 strength stack. Plus you now *must* add a hero/dragon/elephant etc in order to reach the big numbers. Before you did not need to do that only needing Demons.

KGB

[LPhillips]

LP: I've recently read about genghis khan and the history of mongolians so I totally agree. Are you thinking that light cav should travel desert at move cost 2 (lead others)?

About the heavycav, should it get something else if it loses desert?

I think light cavalry should not be able to lead. I personally enjoy how desert terrain requires some units you might usually ignore, like scouts and sandworms. A hero would still be able to travel with light cavalry at cost 2, right?

There's not much you can give to heavy cavalry. They're a 35-strength 2-turn unit in the most common terrain of the game. At 25 base strength, high movement, and 35 in Open terrain, they're still a bargain for 500 gold. They don't need any more bells and whistles.

KGB, heavy cavalry should never have any desert bonus whatsoever. 30 strength in desert for them is still too much. In fact, if you want realism then they should have a penalty. But we don't penalize units; that's a Pandora's box. The Snow bonus is pretty nice, and it's not ridiculous because heavy cavalry have always been utilized very effectively in cold climates. In fact, that's one situation where the equivalent is still used by law enforcement, paramilitary, and outlaws today.

TL;DR? Just skip to the last paragraph.

I would recommend the Lt Calv retain the +8 bonus in the open/desert rather than +5. At 15 strength they are just the same as Dwarves/Pikemen. They should at least be better than that and be reasonably effective at fighting defending HV Infantry.

My way of "helping out" heavy cavalry was to reduce light cavalry's bonus in Open terrain. It would also help pikemen and encourage their use. In point of fact, light cavalry should not be very effective against heavy infantry. Heard of shield walls?
But any strength comparison cannot begin by setting aside the difference in mobility. Light cavalry would still serve the same purpose they serve now, even with no bonuses whatsoever. They're cheap fast movers for expanding, raiding, and reinforcing. I generally purchase them in my first castle, and my whole winning pattern starts with fast expansion. So I'm actually suggesting a mild nerf to my favorite one-turn unit. The idea is to make up for the +5 in desert, and more importantly to make specialty Open units more useful.

So, light cavalry's power is in its mobility and cheap price, not its strength. I have to flatly disagree with everything you stated,
1) Light cavalry don't need to be effective against heavy infantry when defending in open terrain, because...
1-A) Heavy infantry are slow, and don't hit hard. This means they pose much less threat than light cavalry, and when mobile/offensive they are highly ineffective.
1-B) Historically, heavy infantry would form shield walls when defending and beat the piss out of light cavalry.
2) Pikemen are specialty units for Open terrain, and supposed to be great anti-cavalry units. They're very slow, they're expensive, and right now the highly mobile light cavalry is causing them to be very lightly used. The need to increase pikemen's effectiveness at their job, particularly in comparison with light cavalry, is actually one of the motivating arguments for weakening light cavalry's bonus.
3) Dwarves cost 150 more than light cavalry. They are very slow. Even if light cavalry were 10 strength in open, they'd still be superior to dwarves simply because you can afford them, and they can actually accomplish something in less than 5 turns. For 425 gold, dwarves damn well better be able to fight lightweight quick-moving raiders effectively (if they can even engage them).

Synopsis:
Heavy Cavalry would shine more if light cavalry were not stealing their thunder on the plains. 2 light cavalry are approximately equal in Open terrain to one heavy cavalry. They accomplish this while being inexpensive and slightly faster than heavy cavalry. To me, lowering the bonus so that they are 15 in Open terrain kills two birds with one stone, effectively increasing the use for pikemen and heavy cavalry.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

Hv Calv: If you think Hv Calv should get no bonus in the desert I am fine with that. Was just throwing out a small bonus since Piranha asked about it. I can live without it since other than the Outlands map it so rarely comes into play it's not that important.

HV Inf: The Shield walls you speak of are already accounted for in the +10 defense. HV Inf were horribly ineffective at attacking using the wall technique as it was very hard to maintain the wall while moving. But forming squares on defense was exactly what they were great at. That's why Cavalry almost never attacked Infantry until they had been routed / were forced to move due to archery/musket fire (all the way through the US Civil war period).

Pikemen: They had their move increased to 9. A minor increase but still handy when roads are around. I still use Pikemen in some situations where the open areas are limited so the Pikemen can control them and cut off Cavalry.

Lt Calv: Leaving their open bonus at +8 does not make them any more/less attractive as expansion units since it's not effective against cities as you know. All it does is make them slightly better in the Open than defending Dwarves (which seems perfect for a raiding unit since when Dwarves attack they are the better unit). With only a +5 bonus in the Open/Desert (which I already said there isn't much of on most maps) they are suddenly WAY over priced at 275. They are essentially Lt Inf with +6 moves. I don't think +6 moves and an occasional +5 bonus justifies a 175 gold cost so they'd have to drop down to around 200-225 gold given their lack of usefulness in the open with only a +5 bonus.

KGB

[LPhillips]

225 would be fine with me. All they really ever were/are is fast-moving light infantry. At least with the Desert bonus, they will be the specialized one-turn desert unit. We agree that the grassland bonus isn't what makes the unit; it's the speed and price. In short we're discussing a nuance and the main factor is how it compares to other units.

My suggestion is +5 for each. +8 isn't a big deal, but it compares a little too favorably with the specialized units in "open." We'd see the specialized units come into their own a bit more if they didn't have such stiff competition from light cavalry. What do you think for desert? They could go as high as +10, but then you would have a unit whose actual value fluctuates wildly from map to map.

That's pretty much my concise opinion on the whole topic.
The details of the bonuses we're discussing (ranging from 5 to 10) won't be huge factors in game balance, provided the price is kept appropriate. It's just about finding the right niche for light cavalry so that they're a useful, valued member of the unit list, but do not displace others.