Unit updates for version 0.8

[KGB]

LPhillips,

+10 in the desert is a bit much. They'd displace Scorpions with that kind of bonus since they'd be 20 strength meaning 2 Scorpions only have 23 strength compared to 4 Lt Calv at 20. For a 225 cost all they can have is +5 Open/Desert and the 2 self-movement rate in the desert.

What we really need is a 1 turn snow unit because we now have 5 desert units (Lt Calv, Scorpion, Elementals, Medusa, Sandworm) compared to only 2 snow units (Yeti/Mammoth). So in reality making Lt Calv desert specialists makes the Snow/Desert problem worse than it was. Technically the Mongol Horde came from a cold desert not a warm one so they could fit there just as easily as Sand.

KGB

[Ahla]

I can't understand how Ahla says a str 55 demon is still on the weak side. I know that I am repeating myself but imo a str 55 demon stack is still to strong. You can still combine it with a hero/red dragon/elephant on grass etc. to reach a very high str. easily.

55 would be ok if the demons would be capped at str 55 no matter what. As they are not capped, please go down to at least 50.

Edit: As for why I think 55 is to strong please read my old posts.

That is not what I am saying. I say that the way to get to 55 is quite long and slow. Sure they can get boosted, but so can the other side's troops. Actually, it is more propable that they are, since that player must have chosen some other unit, right?

I have seen games where one player has a better start- and midgame, and then buys demons in a few cities when most neutrals are taken. He continues fighting, and when the demons are brought together in decent numbers, he wins. However, this is not in any way because demons are overpowered, but rather what follows from having a strong position midway through the game. He was the only one able to afford buying them and have a few cities produce something that is not useful in the nearest future. In fact, in most of these cases he would propably win if if the demons were someway deleted. What I want to discuss is games that are about even when the demons are bought, between somewhat even players. Do you see the difference?

Instead of buying a demoncity for 1450, I could buy gryphons for 950 and maybe get an extra hero for the remaining 500. Gryphon+hero 3 turns later will clear neutrals much more efficiant than a lone demon. Demons will be better over time, but this now seems like a resonable trade off. I think gryphons are the much better choice very early in the game though, but it obviously depends. The end value of demons has to be high in order to be worth the reduced expansion speed.

Swarm is propably the hardest ability to balance, so it is about right on different map sizes and game types. I mostly play 1vs1 or team vs team, and here you give away a lot of early initiative by going for demons too early. I guess it is much easier in FFA games. I think it is good that map creators can ban a unit on a map, maybe it would be a good idea if a game creator could ban a unit for that particular game. Maybe that one is already implemented too?

Anyway, I think we should try Piranha last suggestion. Does anyone remember what demons had before the last update? I don't think they were built much then.

[Argammon]

I think we can argue this issue to death.

What you don't factor in is that the demon can easily kill the griffon in mid air. With a gryphon you basically have to hop from city to city. You are a lot less mobile.

I also think that your hero math is flawed. If you already have a hero, the 2nd hero does not add that much...

[LPhillips]

Argammon, Ahla is beginning with several assumptions which he does not explain explicitly.

1) The fastest player to expand gains several advantages. In fact, my fast expansion is the reason I win most games (sorry to pull the stats, but it's a good gauge of a player's understanding of the game). Being one city up on your opponent for 10 turns equates to a difference of ~400 gold in the bank, minus some upkeep. Now consider a player who uses Griffon to conquer neutrals quickly and perhaps even raze the enemy's cities before they can take them. With an average 5 city difference during the first 10 turns of expansion (and I often achieve this) the expanding player has around 2000 gold more in production and hero purchases. One Griffon city early in the game is thus worth more than a Demon city, and it costs 2/3 the amount.

2) Money is the most important thing in the game, tied with number of production centers. The cost difference between two units is not to be ignored. Griffons should not be as strong as Demons even when properly employed in their home territory. That's why Demons exist, and it's the definition of an all-purpose unit.

EDIT: Ahla's point about the opportunity cost of using Demons is very potent for the reasons given, in addition to those he gave before.

[KGB]

Argammon is right that we can argue it to death. The important thing is Demons are changing in version 0.8. Whether they will need further adjustment will have to wait until they get game tested in a lot of games.

With the Demon at base 20, +7 (5) it's numbers go 27,34,41,48,55.

I can easily make a case that the Gryphon should have it's base strength increased to 30 and be +15 against cities. This would make it slightly better in non-city situations and equivalent to a Pegasi (25 with +5 Morale) and help the Gryphon survive encounters with Elves/Wizards outside of cities especially since it's a 3 turn unit.

At the same time I'd like to see the Green and Red Dragon base strengths go up from 40 to 45 (improving the Greens stats from 35 to 45 instead of 40).

Then in comparison with Demon:

Gryphon/Demon: You'd need 2 Demons to be better than 2 Gryphons outside a city (currently 1 Demon is 10 better than 1 Gryphon) and 4 Demons to be better than 4 Gryphons in a city (currently 2 Demons = 2 Gryphons in a city) and it would take the 5th Demon to be significantly better.

Gryphon/Green Dragon: In 12 turns you get 4 Demons with 48 strength and 8 total hits. In 12 turns you get 3 Green Dragons with 45 strength and 9 total hits. Roughly equal, again taking the 5th Demon to be significantly better assuming they could ever catch the faster Dragons.

The tradeoff being you can split the Gryphons/Greens into multiple stacks vs having to keep the Demons together to be effective. This seems to be a reasonable balance and offer different strategic options for players based on whether they want 1 super stack or several better than average stacks especially with the Greens group move power.

KGB

[LPhillips]

Corrected a misquote; meant to say "Ahla's point about opportunity cost".

KGB,
A base strength of 20 for demons with +7 seems like the best option when compared with other units. However, I'd prefer Griffons to remain as they are. They're not expensive enough for base 30 at their speed with their strength in cities, and they'd be less desirable if you raised the cost to compensate. They're a niche unit right now, and attempting to make them more of an all-around unit would take them out of their niche. Sure, they're the closest equivalent to demons right now, but they're not in direct competition. What you propose is moving them toward direct competition. Would you keep the price the same?

Green Dragons have 3hp, right? 40 base strength is pretty good for that speed and 50% more hits.

[Argammon]

I think everything has been said about the demon issue. As KGB noted, time will tell.

I want to make a general remark with respect to ALL flying units though. I have the feeling that all of them are basically to strong if you factor in mobility advantages. Not only that they have a lot of movement points. They can hide on mountains or water and are fast on difficult terrain like swamp or hills.

IMO the strongest units should be non-flying units. Say, for simplicity there are 3 "tiers" of units, bad medium good. Then I would suggest:

bad flyer < bad normal < normal flier < normal normal < good flyer < good flyer.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

I'd leave the cost the same for Gryphons with 30 strength. In truth I've never bought one at any stage of any game even at 950. Maybe I am missing something. But I normally forgo buying the Gryphon and instead save a bit more for a Pegasi or a Demon if I want a flying unit in the initial turns. By mid game they have almost zero value to me personally due to the presence of much stronger 3+ turn units or units with attractive bonus's. I do keep ones I find for free of course.

Green Dragons do have 3 HP. But given their high cost (1800) and slower build time (4 turns) they are bad investments compared to a Gryphon (you can buy 2 Gryphons for 1 Green Dragon) and VASTLY weaker than Demons at 40 strength compared to 41/48/55. Hence their *only* value is the +4 group move which is very hard to justify buying except on large maps where you have lots (20+) of cities. You can't even get Greens with a Hero offer or from a L3 Ruin which is also annoying. We discussed fixing the Green Dragon in another thread where we proposed that all the group move was cumulative. No word on whether that change was implemented or not. If it was, then 40 strength is fine but by not being 45 strength they are simply not worth buying because they can't fight well enough to justify their investment given I'd rather put another Demon in my hero stack since I already need space for a Red Dragon/Archon leaving only 5 slots for 5 Demons to get the max swarm bonus or buy 2 Gryphon cities.

Or put another way, lets suppose it's turn 1 in a rich game (1300+ starting income). You buy a hero for 500, search a ruin and find 700+ gold and plunder a nearby neutral(s) giving you around 1800 gold to spend on your capitol production (Hint for Newbies: I NEVER EVER buy production in my capitol until after I complete all my turn 1 movement so I know how much money I really have to spend and if I need to save some for a hero incase my hero died on a ruin/city). Something that happens roughly 1/6 games or so. What do you buy in your capitol? Gryphons for 900, Pegasi for 1100, Demon for 1400 or Green for 1800? The answer for me is never Green and if it's not Green *now* when would it ever be Green?

KGB

[Argammon]

To reformulate my question.

Take the green dragon for example. Why isn't there a similar unit called titan, for example, that is 5-10 points stronger but cannot fly?

[Moonknight]

You can't even get Greens with a Hero offer or from a L3 Ruin which is also annoying.

Why is that anyways? I would want them over Medusa's and Elementals usually b/c it seems like whenever I get a hero offer with either of those units it's a miles away from the battle so I usually just pass and hope for something closer the next turn. A Valk with a Green Dragon offer would come in handy!

I actually utilize Green Dragons on a few maps in which all you want to produce is flying units and b/c of their usefulness on their own for those maps. I will use them more when the Demons are nudered.

In the end of large maps, if you have a powerful Palidan and a Red Dragon to get the strength of Green Dragons to 75, then my stack of six 3-HP green dragons+RD+Pal will destroy your stack of six 2-HP demons+RD+Pal.