Unit updates for version 0.8

[Moonknight]

Take the green dragon for example. Why isn't there a similar unit called titan, for example, that is 5-10 points stronger but cannot fly?

Maybe b/c once you get to that point of having that kind of production, your hero will make the stack max out at 75 anyways, so might as well have the flying units?

[Argammon]

Take the green dragon for example. Why isn't there a similar unit called titan, for example, that is 5-10 points stronger but cannot fly?

Maybe b/c once you get to that point of having that kind of production, your hero will make the stack max out at 75 anyways, so might as well have the flying units?

Then perhaps make the flying units weaker?

[KGB]

A Valk with a Green Dragon offer would come in handy!

Agreed! I hope it gets added to the Allies list in 0.8.

In the end of large maps, if you have a powerful Palidan and a Red Dragon to get the strength of Green Dragons to 75, then my stack of six 3-HP green dragons+RD+Pal will destroy your stack of six 2-HP demons+RD+Pal.

True. With the following important Caveats:

1) It takes 24 turns to get those 6 Greens vs 18 to get 6 Demons. The extra 6 turns has another stack of 3 Demons (55 strength) already ready to go.
2) No one (well certainly not me) puts Hero + RD with 6 Demons. You just put 7 Demons in the stack with 1 Grand Archon. That murders the Pally/RD/6 Greens because the Archon kills the Pally bonus leaving the Greens fighting at 45 (50 blessed) while the Demons can't be lowered from their unblessed 65. Feel free to go with 6 Demons, RD, Archon if you can't bless the Demons and want 75 strength.
3) I typically use my high level Hero+RD with other non-demon units in order to boost them up into the 60+ strength range since I don't need them with my Demons.

KGB

[TheVic]

1) Looking back to earlier discussions, it has been a complaint that only the number of cities are deciding who is victorious. I agree that it is good if there are units which make the side with less cities still able to win. Demons is such a unit right now, one of the few, and that is a good thing.

2) Today is Demon to strong <compared to build time> even if it is slowing up growth if built to early, I nearly lost a game recently as I built plundered my first cities to build Demons early, and that was bad as growth was to slow. Ahla saved that game as he didn't. Early growth maters, but here is speed of map of course very important.

3) As it is only good in large number it is The Most Expensive Unit, even more so then Dragons, as a single Dragon city is enough, not so with Demons.

4) If lowered to much in strength it again makes Red Dragon the super unit you Must have.

After all positive things that I have to say for Demons, it is just to good at the moment when used properly. But please let us not go to far because it is to good. If after some weakening it is to good, lets make it weaker in a second step.

Alternative 1)
Keep as is but increase build time to 4 turns. That is a Very big change as each loss becomes 33% more expensive and makes our "super stacks units" better when trading. A solution I prefer after some thought compared to nerfing strength to much, and it becomes more easily to compare with Green + Red Dragon stack.

Solution 2) just lower base strength from 25 down to 15, witch lower max strength to 55, a quite OK number.

[Dreadfeather]

I'm posting the current changes for version 0.8 so you have time to discuss additional changes .

Demon
Battle 5
Swarm +10 per demon. Max 55.
(Not bad, because it still holds form as a "swarm" effect, so you need lots of them (five?) to get a boost. I still don't know if I'd pay 1450 for a 3 turn unit that doesn't reach it's full potential until (3x5) 15 turns later. But of course, it does have flying, and decent movement, so maybe it's worth it???)

Green dragon
Battle 35 -> 40
Plunder 65 -> 55
(Fine change)

Red dragon
Plunder 75 -> 60

Heavy infantry
Defend 10 -> 8
(I don't like this, Hvy Inf is a mainstay in early game... but okay I'll see how this works)

Unicorn
Negate fear 3 -> 4
Upkeep 12 -> 10
Move 16 -> 17
(Fine change)

Pikeman
Cost 300 -> 275
(Great change)

[LPhillips]

Those changes aren't current, Dreadfeather. Piranha has made some adjustments to them. Let me check the current stats...

The only changes actually implemented in 0.8 at the moment are the changes to Pikemen's price, Green dragon's strength, Red dragon's plunder, and Demon looks like this:
20+7(5).

At last word, Heavy Infantry and Unicorn are slated not to change, Light Cavalry and Heavy Cavalry were slated to receive some terrain bonus changes. No idea what piranha/snotling decided about those, but for the moment nothing has changed.

[Fenrisson]

Too late for version 0.8 I'm sure, but for future updates: Why not a unit that cancels/reduces swarm bonus? I don't see the value in having a type of bonus that can't be countered. Everything else can be countered with the right unit: walls, morale, fear, chaos, leadership & terrain bonus all have unit(s) that reduces them. Why not swarm?

I think demons would be less difficult to balance if there was a unit with, say, -5 to swarm. I'm thinking something along the lines of the catapult, where it's not a very efficient unit unless you're using it as intended.

[LPhillips]

There has been a lot of argument against anti-swarm bonus. The reasoning is thus: swarm units are weak without their ability. They contain a natural balancing element because accumulating the proper amount is difficult, and eliminating a few units reduces their effectiveness to a large degree.

So, it is evident that swarm units are self-balancing. The only anti-swarm ability I could see not interfering with the balance would be an expensive unit that reduces the swarm count by one. Cost minimum 1000, 3 turns. It would probably need some secondary support ability, like a small +ambush. And it would probably have to fly. Given the number of demons now needed for a superstack, one or two anti-swarm units in a stack populated by well-supported Green Dragons would prove to be the undoing of any demon-based strategy.

The ultimate anti-demon stack would then become (much more expensive in time and cash than a similar demon based stack)
GD
GD
GD
Anti-swarm
Anti-swarm
RD
Archon, Devil, or support hero
Main hero

The Green Dragons should be able to maintain at least 50 strength against a well-supported demon super stack, including Chaos/Fear units and negate units, while an equally supported demon stack facing them would have strength 51. The Green Dragons have an edge with 3 hp and faster move, but this demonstration makes it obvious that the anti-swarm units would have to be at least strength 30 and flying to be effective, placing their price around 1300.

**Doing taxes, and these are my 5-minute breaks. That's the reason for the forum spam.

[Chazar]

Demons, Red Dragons, Green Dragons, Archons, Great Archons, ... are all mobile fliers.

For the sake of variety, shouldn't there be some powerful ground-bound unit that trades mobility for firepower? Currently, there seems little incentive to go with a slow-moving ground based army. Mobility is key already, and even for strengths there is no reason to use ground units. I thought that units in strategy games should follow rock-scissor-papers patterns, with everything having some kind of counter (I agree with previous posters that swarms do not need a specific counter ability, since reducing a swarm is already possible). So I think there should be some powerful ground-based units that can fight demons/green dragons other than green dragons/demons, or maybe something better at anti-air than wizards and eagles, maybe something providing some anti-air to a stack?

The anti-air unit does not have to be fast to be able to catch up and attack a flying army, even at moderate speed it could be used to trap or surprise an invading flying army. Otherwise, it might be too good then.

Only fear is earth-bound, provided by Devil & Medusa, but neither is a front-line troop like Demons or Green Dragons.

[LPhillips]

The problem with ground-pounders is that they don't see much action. On most maps, you'd prefer a good stack of boosted fliers even if there were a 4-hp 45 strength Titan unit. The Titan stack could never catch the fliers, if they just take advantage of the terrain. This might be entirely different with the ability to restrict units from maps. However, the current ability to restrict from castles independently seems more prone to abuse than anything else. Not only can bad mapmaking give someone an advantage over others in what units they can use, but the inability to control ally offers means that someone can randomly get very powerful units which others on the same map are unable to gain even by purchasing production.