Unit updates for version 0.8

[KGB]

Chazar,

The problem is that flying armies can hide on mountains and water. Until such time as the game allows ground units to attack flyers on such terrain there is no incentive to have strong ground based armies because so many maps allow flying stacks to hop around without being attacked. This allows you to bypass the front lines and reach interior cities that strong ground units can't.

Wizards are already great at countering all the flying armies. They just cost a lot. Elves are nice too but they also cost too much. If the cost of those units was reduced to say 750 and 225 we'd see a LOT more Wizards and Elves and thus a lot fewer flying units and therefore more ground units. Eagles used to be fantastic at chasing down flying units until players complained they were too good and then they got weakened so that now all they are good for is killing Pegasi/Gryphons/Crows. If the Eagles anti-air power was restored this would be another incentive to use more ground based units.

Stack anti-air is available in 2 items. I think one of the new heroes has it as an ability as well. It's not common but it does exist. If Wizards/Elves/Eagles were changed I think these 2 items and the new hero would be enough to keep flying units more in balance.

follow rock-scissor-papers patterns

In the interest of fantasy theme I prefer to call this Iron Golem-Rust Monster-Mind Flayer

KGB

[Argammon]

I must say I agree with Chazar's point.

I don't see why you can't just take all flying units and make them subsequently weaker until people use ground units. Logic tells me there must exist some intermediate threshold where ground vs air is balanced. Of course this threshold depends on the map.

Flying units should always lose on direct confrontations. Their job should IMO be to fly over a body of water or mountains to launch a sneak attack etc.

[KGB]

Argammon,

I think you'd be shocked by how much weaker they'd need to be until people use ground units. A good example is the Crow which had to be reduced in power several times (strength, ability to carry hero, no pillage skill) and it's still a very popular unit due to it's mobility and view.

Also in the fantasy world the Dragon is always the pinnacle of power or certainly no worse that a co-pinnacle of power.

Of course this threshold depends on the map.

This is the biggest contributor to players using fliers. The more terrain features a map has, the more fliers get used.

The only realistic options (rated 1-10 where 1=minor, 10=major) to make people use ground units more are:

1) Lower the cost of the anti-air units so players can fill cities with them as defenders. Rating: 4
2) Remove the ability for fliers to use roads for 1 mp. This makes no logical sense as birds don't fly further/faster by flying along our highways. Force fliers to always pay 2 points to move (4 on mountains) as Warlords I did (something I continually lobby for). Rating: 7
3) Allow ground units to attack fliers on impassible terrain if they are next to them as DLR did (something I continually lobby for). Rating: 2
4) Increase production time length on equivalent units (flight/ground) by 1 turn so that a flier always takes 1 more turn to make. Rating: 10

KGB

[Argammon]

KGB,

I would be in favor of all of your ideas. The least thing I would like to see is that if I were to create a boring map that was all grassland that fliers would not be used. If they are used on such a map something is clearly wrong.

[Moonknight]

I would vote for Elves being slightly cheaper and Eagles being more powerful against fliers (I myself barely use Eagles now).

I think the Wizard is good how it is b/c of it's speed/anti-air/UL/STR combination.

I would also be fine with charging flyers 2 on roadpaths, and therefore possibly increasing the speed of some of the flying units like the Crow and Eagle.

I do not like the idea of being able to attack a unit in a space that you cannot enter into though.

[piranha]

I agree. Perhaps its time for more rebalancing of units. Since we are still waiting for the final art we could do it before launching version 0.8. The fliers cannot use roads option is probably too complicated to do anything with now.


Here are my suggestions

Eagle: Battle 10, antiair 25, move: 16.
Red dragon, cost 2500, same stats
Great archon cost 2400
Green dragon Lose it's +4 move speed. cost 2000
Demon, speed 15?
Basic archon, cost 1500
Mammoth could be the the titan (until we have a titan). Any ideas? Battle 20, defense 10, cost 1500, +4 groupmove, move 14?
Pegasi: cost 1450?
wizard: cost 900
crusader: cost 650
Gryphon: move 14, battle 20, city: 25
Catapult: cost 750
Crow: move: 20, vision 3 (makes the scout a interesting scout option)
Yeti: cost 600
dwarf: cost 400
Heavy cav: cost 475

[Moonknight]

Overall, those sound good...my thoughts...

wizard: cost 900 950
crusader: cost 650 600
Catapult: cost 750 800
Yeti: cost 600 Lead through snow at 2, 700
Heavy cav: cost 475 Stay at 500

Wolfrider: cost 525
Scorpion: cost 600

[KGB]

Piranha,

Eagle: Battle 13, AA 22, move 18. Need to have some combat value for it's 2 turns time and needs to catch slower fliers.
Green Dragon: +2 Move Speed, 1800. Already VERY hard to justify this unit now even with 40 strength/3hits. At 2000 gold, 4 turns and no group move would make it even more useless. Also please add this to the list of allies that come with a hero offer and can be found in ruins.
Demon: Speed 16
Archon: I think it's fine as it is now
Gryphon: I think it's fine as it is now
Mammoth: Looks quite interesting with those stats (assuming it keeps 4 hits). Will it retain the stack move bonus in snow but no longer have a stack combat bonus in snow? If it no longer has a stack move bonus in snow then the Yeti needs it.
Pegasi: Probably a bit too expensive. Should be 100 more than a Medusa for it's extra move/hero flight.

Everything else there looks good to me. I like that costs are getting lowered on more units allowing players more opportunity to buy/experiment with them.

Would also suggest Elves drop from 300 to 250-275.

I wouldn't do too much more until players have time to play with 0.8 and see how much these changes affect game play.

Incidentally did you ever change the combat rules to have Negate come after the Morale/Fear and Leadership/Chaos gets resolved so that the Negate units are not overpowered?

KGB

[hatchfactory]

The least thing I would like to see is that if I were to create a boring map that was all grassland that fliers would not be used. If they are used on such a map something is clearly wrong.

Nice way to put it, I agree completely.

Green dragon Lose it's +4 move speed. cost 2000

Mammoth could be the the titan (until we have a titan). Any ideas? Battle 20, defense 10, cost 1500, +4 groupmove, move 14?

The Green Dragon currently fills a niche for a stack bonus to help mobilize troops. Having the 24 + 4 guarantees increased mobility for any unit stacked except the wizard (although I wish it wasn't capped at 12 or whatever the cap is.).

Handing that bonus over to the Mammoth (@ 14 + 4) would indeed be handy through the snow with the snow move cost bonus, but there would no longer be a unit for transporting units long distances

I would echo KGB completely on the Green Dragon, especially or the ruins and offers, raise or remove the move bonus cap, and desire the Mammoth to be move 16 +4.

[LPhillips]

What's with 2500 on Red Dragon? Anyone really see a problem with it as it is now? I seem to remember the cost being a huge concern before, and a great deal of satisfaction in the community when it was settled at 2200. I don't see how a cost increase of 15% is required, especially at +10 morale and not +12.

The main problem with flying units is their speed. Recoding the road issue would be the optimal solution (imo). I know that's impossible to implement in a hurry, but it should still be the ultimate goal. So I suggest that unit balancing should be done with that in mind. So, fliers shouldn't be extremely heavily nerfed now to make up for the problem, or balancing them relative to other units later will be a problem.

Please don't nerf the crow. The scout is already a better unit: faster, kills fliers, leads others, has UL. There's no balance problem there. I don't even build crows now, except when terrain forces it.

Will anyone build Pegasi at 1450? It's a stretch now at 1250, and once you reach 1450 you put it in direct competition with the more expensive purchases like Demon. And if all of the upper-level units are heavily increased in price as suggested, won't that set back the whole effort of rebalancing by lowering prices, as done in the last two major balance changes? It seems like a step backwards, which will require rebalancing of most maps, and will cause the re-emergence of extreme hero offer abuse.

This almost seems like a knee-jerk reaction. It's better to make gradual changes, such as implementing a new, cheaper substitute for the fliers. The ground units should accomplish the same goals or offer alternate options for problems fliers are used to solve, and at a lower price. I don't think skyrocketing flier prices will do anything to alleviate the real problems, which are flier movement and the lack of competitive ground units.