Unit updates for version 0.8

[Igor]

Hello everybody!
We have an overpowerfull unit now, it is Demon, which is much discussed here, and it will probably downgraded to 50 maximum strength.
But killing one monster, we may get three new. Those are new credit-buy heroes, which is mostly overpowerfull.
Horse Lord with leadership in open +25 at level 4. Game on open-place map will be impossible without this hero. It's mostly disbalanced.
Second one, Barbarian, will be the king of all little map, having +70 strength at level 3.
Without downgrading these heroes we will have no alternative of using them. Much more than demons are now.

[LPhillips]

Igor, the primary usage of a hero is their support abilities. The three new heroes are not primary heroes. None of them are vital to play, and they'll remain secondary to the primary 3. It's easy to be alarmist when new elements are introduced, but let's wait and let the dust settle.

Also, this game we have enjoyed so long for free needs some cash. The developers have moved this thing forward at remarkable speed, and they've allowed us not only to test it but full input on its features and balance. All for free, without an ad nor even a donation button.

The new heroes should be worth having so that players will pay a small amount, which will go into buying more map tiles among other things. Community-provided funds were used to introduce new heroes in this beta. If we want to see more features, then we need to contribute. The project needs funding and players shouldn't shirk paying a one-time fee to use new features. Free play is still available to all.

Honestly, the only worry to me is that the Horse Lord could be free to walk right through the front lines unmolested and reach the rear of any player. I don't know how you intercept him if he can stay on his native terrain. Still, he's only able to support in 3 terrain types, and City isn't one of them.

[Igor]

Ok, I understand where total thought moves.
Let's separate 2 themes. Strength of units is discussed here as this looked before. And questions of payments, which is very important, of course, is another theme.
I have some moments about payments which I'd like to make clear, and I'll create a new theme soon.
Speaking below, I will keep in view only heroes/units ability, doesn't matter free or bought.

Hors Lord probably more powerful than demons are now.
This is not added hero, this is main hero. Just take 2 or 3 of them first of all others, to add an elephant and full the stack with cheap minotaurs or heavy cavalry and send them deep in enemy's rear. Standing there on open place, this stack will be insubmersible. And it will threaten to some of opponent's cities at the same time. Having the same expansion, opponent will not have enough armies to defend all of his cities and many of them will be razed.

If somebody don't belive this, remember how to play on Stratego map before central bless-temple was taken out. Remember? An elephant was sent to enemy's cities and stood too close to them. Then he razed them one after another. And there was no alternative for this unit. Especially with added unicorn.
The same thing will be with horse-lord hero. He will take his +25 leadership at open on 4-th level. No alternative for him on middle and big maps where is enough open places


About Barbarian, he will have +70 strength on level 3. You have read quite right, his strength will be +70 at level 3. The king of all little maps. Lonely Isle and Desert Showdown will not be won without this hero, when will play 2 strong players, who knows what is what there.

This two heroes very disbalanced. (Let's remember, that I will open a theme about payments separately of this theme, and we don't need to mix both questions.)

So, will we have 2 new demons? Let's look honest on this, without going aside.

[Moonknight]

Even more dangerous Igor, the Barbarian can be at strength 60 with 4 HP by level 4. The Strength level up should be 5 points for 5 STR, and the HP level up should be 20 points. That will help somewhat...

This is what testing is for though.

[Igor]

And to limit Horse Lord's leadership to +19 maxium, cost 20 per 7.

[LPhillips]

I thought perhaps we should wait for a formal announcement of Beta 0.8 and the new heroes to do this, but since it's begun already...

Even more dangerous Igor, the Barbarian can be at strength 60 with 4 HP by level 4. The Strength level up should be 5 points for 5 STR, and the HP level up should be 20 points. That will help somewhat...

This is what testing is for though.

Barbarian's HP up at 20 points is bad. He's rather useless as it is; he's not a hero at all. He's a leveling unit with insignificant support ability. 6 max negate at 10 points for +1. He's nothing but a bodyguard for better heroes. Since we're discussing his balance, let's look at the current stats (from a few days ago, when the most recent 0.8 game began). He's not what he was a week ago.
Strength 30, 5 for +10
HP 2, 15 for +1
His starting HP needs to be 3, so he's at least good at one thing: early expansion. Then, maybe his strength should cost 8. He can be strength 70 at 4 currently, but with 2hp and zero unit support ability he's still just a strong unit. Remember that for the same xp you could have a level 4 Valkeria, which is a far superior hero in a stack. Barbarian is also harder to level than others, because his only strength is to stand on the front line and take hits. Even on small maps, he's just not a big threat. You can whine about how strong he'll be, but he's one unit without the ability to boost others, and a real hero will put him in his place quickly. As he is, he'll just be a bodyguard for a main hero.

Horse Lord is... very difficult to balance. He's fast, he searches ruins like a boss, and he's got the ability to dominate the 3 main terrain types. Just as Igor said, just as I said, you can't intercept this hero. He's no good in cities, but he's good at getting to the undefended ones. Igor and I have both already mapped out the way to abuse this hero, and neither of us has used him yet

Assassin is the best "support hero" of the group. At level 8, he'll have +80% group ambush ftw. You can't counter that, except with expensive critical stacks or perhaps another Assassin
You'll want this guy supporting your leveled paly/dreadlord even before a red dragon, if the Assassin is leveled. After Horse Lord, this is the guy to be scared of. Show him some love. He even gets a little city melt ability if you care to purchase it (6 city chaos).

My suggestion if the Horse Lord concept is maintained:
1) Remove his UL. Make him near-useless at ruins so he's hard to level up. Maybe 4, with +1 up to 12. Right now the best tactic is to send this hero to every ruin you can reach, leveling him to 4-5, and then burn your enemies to the ground. Without the UL he has a very difficult time leveling, so you need time and a lot of effort to make him into the ultimate raider.
2) Give 10 UL +3, max 25 to Barbarian. Conan the Barbarian beat the hell out of several ruined cities, evil undead, wizards, etc. in his time (books). He's the one who should be the ruin boss. He won't be good for anything else after very early game. Unless you actually buy his negate (level him to 11+), he's just one of those units you debate putting with your hero at the cost of your slot for a Dragon or Devil.

And to limit Horse Lord's leadership to +19 maxium, cost 20 per 7.

Igor, this is more knee-jerking. That's patently absurd. There are better ways: the proposed UL reduction will make this hero incredibly difficult to use, and anyone who can level him sufficiently deserves his abilities.

[Moonknight]

Strength 30, 5 for +10
HP 2, 15 for +1
His starting HP needs to be 3, so he's at least good at one thing: early expansion.

LP, his starting HP is 3! I think it's mislabeled in the Hero Offer screen...

He's a one man wrecking crew at the beginning of the game. 30 STR and 3HP can take down most nearby neutral cities. 1 level up and he can be 50 STR 3 HP, 2 level up he can be 70 STR 3HP or 40 STR 4HP, 3 level up can be 60 STR 4 HP.

Pretty powerful against Neutrals...will die as a frontline eventually against your opponenets, but will get you a fast start that you love

[KGB]

Might want to move the hero discussion to it's own thread. This one is getting a bit long and is now split between units and heroes.

A 70/3 unit is pretty incredible. 89% likely to kill a Gryphon in a +5 walled neutral. Over 90% likely to kill 4 Hv Infantry with no walls, and 84% with +5 walls. You don't just use him to rapidly expand. You put him with 1 Eagle to fly him around and rush your opponents. Very likely you can raze them out of the game early enough that it won't matter that he has little end game value.

One way to balance these new heroes rather than nerfing them is to simply adjust their XP table. There is nothing that says all heroes have to use the same table. That's exactly how DLR managed it. So instead of 1000, 2000 etc the stronger ones can be 1500, 3000 etc.

Incidentally one of the things I really like about the Assassin hero is that he can reach a max move of 24. No other hero goes more than 18 or 19. Allows him to reach out and strike from a long distance.

KGB

[Moonknight]

One way to balance these new heroes rather than nerfing them is to simply adjust their XP table. There is nothing that says all heroes have to use the same table. That's exactly how DLR managed it. So instead of 1000, 2000 etc the stronger ones can be 1500, 3000 etc.
KGB

Excellent idea!

[Igor]

this is more knee-jerking. That's patently absurd. There are better ways: the proposed UL reduction will make this hero incredibly difficult to use, and anyone who can level him sufficiently deserves his abilities.

For my opinion, absurd is when +25 leadership at level 4.
This hero is not for ruins, like Valkyria. His task is to lead army group to opponent's rear. And no defence of him.
My offer shown in previous message seems to me as very reasonable, if we don't wish to get another demon.